Let’s take a look..
Dominic Casey
“You can call me crazy,” says Dominic, who has been a private investigator for 20 years. “Everyone is calling me crazy. I get death threats on a daily basis.”
Dominic Casey, the Anthony family private investigator and one time bodyguard for Casey Anthony has never wavered in his belief 2yo Caylee Anthony was alive and worked hundreds of hours trying to find her.
However in mid-November almost a month before Caylee’s remains were found, he searched an area on Suburban Drive, 14 houses away from the Anthony home. Some people speculated that he did find her and failed to report it. Since then he has vehemently denied finding Caylee’s remains before she was officially found on December 11, 2008. Another PI Jim Hoover working for the Anthony’s tagged along in the search.
It was later rumored in the media that it was Casey Anthony’s attorney Jose Baez who had actually sent Dominic Casey to this area and was told to call him first if he found Caylee’s remains.
Dominic Casey answered the rumor with this statement to the media:
“Had I the misfortune of stumbling across any remains the first thing I would have done is, I would have prayed, the second thing I would have done is stayed at the location and called 911.”
Video:
PI Jim Hoover
On November 15, 2008, while Dominic Casey was poking and prodding the dense woods of 8905 Suburban Drive with a stick in one hand and a cell phone in the other, Jim Hoover video taped the entire ordeal. On the other end of the cell phone was Psychic Ginnette Maticia Lucas who had a vivid dream the night before and had described a wooded area to Dominic.
Dominic Casey says this was the first and only time he had ever looked for a deceased Caylee. In my opinion, Ginnette Lucas’s description matched the area where childhood friend Kio Cruz claimed she and Casey Anthony used to hang out in their early teens. This explains why Dominic Casey hurriedly went to this particular area. As we know through documents, he was seeking help through psychics to find Caylee.
It is also a known fact that PI Jim Hoover later tried to sell footage of this video tape to various media outlets. If in fact, Caylee’s remains were found, no doubt Jim Hoover would have been the first to report their finding. As noted in the video above, and later validated by Dominic Casey, they were close, but no Caylee.
Keith Williams
On August 18, 2008, Keith Williams who also had a psychic’s hunch found himself searching a similar area of Suburban Drive. He politely knocked on the door of George and Cindy Anthony to show them what he had found in an empty lot just down the street from their home. He had found a Father’s Day balloon, a few pieces of children’s clothing, stuffed animals and a sandal. After the Anthony family showed no interest in these items, he later called law enforcement and a police report was made. Ironically Officer Richard Cain was the responding officer to both Keith Williams and Roy Kronk 911 calls in mid-August. Keith was close, but no Caylee.
Laura Buchanan
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/21704994/detail.html
Searcher: Caylee’s Body Not In Woods
Defense Team Claims Body Dumped After Jailing POSTED: Monday, November 23, 2009
UPDATED: 11:27 pm EST November 23,2009
One of the volunteers, Laura Buchanan, of New Jersey, submitted a sworn statement that may provide ammunition for Casey Anthony’s defense.
In the statement, Buchanan wrote:
“On Sept. 3, 2008 … I personally searched near the privacy fence and worked my way towards, and then the spot, where the body was found.
I did not notice anything unusual. I did not notice a strange smell. I noticed no buzzards, nor unusual animal or insect activity.
It is my opinion that the remains of Caylee Anthony were not there during the time of our search.”
Signed statement:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/32326505/Casey-Anthony-Defense-team-Laura-Buchanan-signed-statement
Apparently, Laura Buchanan has a document to prove her claim however another TES searcher who was assigned with LB said they were on the Blanchard Park search team and not Suburban Drive. According to Lela Radojevic, Laura Buchanan was with her the entire day and did not leave when asked by Kathi Belich of WFTV.
Since this story broke, State investigators are intensely trying to dismiss her claim calling her records a fabrication.
Putting all the negative press aside, Defense attorney Cheney Mason is said to have a legitimate copy of it in the Equusearch records that proves she is telling the truth.
Considering no one knows for sure as of yet and I have no reason to believe she’s a liar, I’ll add her to the list. Close but no Caylee, which brings me to Joe Jordan.
Joe Jordan
Joe Jordan, another TES searcher made the following statement to Casey Anthony’s Defense team.
a. On September 1, 2008, I was a volunteer member for Texas Equu Search (TES).
b. On September 1, 2008, I and a group of approximately 30 TES volunteers went to the area of Suburban and Hope Springs Streets in Orlando, Florida. We went to that area to search for the remains of Caylee Anthony.
c. Although I was in the area with over 30 people, only five to six volunteers and I searched the area by the stockade fence along the south side of Suburban Street near Hope Springs Street. Among the five to six volunteers with me were Danny Ibison and his dog and a Panama City Sheriff’s Deputy with one of his two dogs.
d. All of the information concerning the search was reduced to writings which were placed on specific forms provided to me by TES. I am a very detailed person and I kept a detailed list of the items I saw and there (sic) location which I believed were important to a missing person investigation. All of this information was provided to TES.
The very same day that he signed this statement, Joe Jordan called the OCSO and spoke to Cpl Eric Edwards. He told Cpl Edwards that he was interviewed by a defense investigator that morning and had surreptitiously recorded the interview which is in violation of Florida Law. Since it was illegally recorded, SAO Drane Burdick couldn’t listen to it.
Subsequently, she was present for an interview with Jordan and states in the motion that
Based upon representations made during the course of that interview, the illegally recorded statement may materially conflict with the subsequent interview.
The OCSO and the defense team both refused to press charges against Jordan and Drane Burdick asks the court to not allow it to be released as it was illegally obtained.
It sounds to me as though Mr. Jordan tried to do the right thing for himself and went about it in the wrong way. Did he have a concern that somehow. the interviewer phrased questions in such a way as to paint his actions differently than they really were? Anyway, this leaves Mr. Jordan pretty much out of the equation to support the defense motion!
Source:
http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2009/12/casey-anthony-state-files-motions.html
For the purpose of this article, I’m adding Joe Jordan to the list. Joe Jordan was close but no Caylee.
Deputy Jason Forgey
After Caylee Anthony’s remains were found December 11th on the west side of Suburban Drive, it was imperative for Det. Yuri Melich to interview Deputy Jason Forgey, a cadaver dog handler for OCSO.
http://flawebhosting.net/docdump021809/18740223.pdf
pulled from pg 12 of 18
Detective Yuri Melich wrote this report.
Deputy Jason Forgey and his cadaver dog had checked the east end of Suburban Drive in July so it was presumed that this area was also checked. This tip was cleared based on this. As a note, Deputy Forgey responded to the area where the body was found after its discovery and I asked if he had ever deployed his cadaver dog there. He said he had not, and they had focused their efforts to the east end of Suburban Drive and the area of the school, Corporal Edwards later interviewed Detective Jerald White regarding clearing this tip.
This was a CYA maneuver by LE. It seems this area was ruled out because it was “presumed” it was cleared or at least, that’s what they want the general public to believe. I’m not one who does. Look what happened to Officer Richard Cain. He was fired for not finding Caylee so Deputy Forgey certainly knew what to say. “No, he didn’t clear the west side of Suburban Drive.” That’s his story and he’s sticking to it. It’s my opinion, that only an inept investigator would check one side of the street and not the other so I believe he did and came up empty handed. No Caylee.
Sgt. Richard Cain
When Sgt. Richard Cain responded to one of three calls Roy Kronk made to LE in August 08, he didn’t see anything even though he was only 6 feet away according to Kronk. Cain was fired after the discovery of Caylee Anthony’s remains on December 11, 2008 for not following through.
Two of Roy Kronk’s buddies who were with him in at the crime scene in August 08, David Deen and Chris Gibson didn’t see anything either. No Caylee.
32 Texas Equusearch Volunteers
Thirty-two TES volunteers who searched this area of Suburban Drive in early September 2008, will all attest to one thing. They searched and didn’t find Caylee. The excuse will be water that inundated the area left by Hurricane Fay. Tim Miller did lose a 4-wheeler while attempting the search. He also said this was a “hot spot” which makes me wonder why it was never searched again by anyone, local law enforcement or the FBI.
Roy Kronk
Roy Kronk is the meter reader who officially found the remains of Caylee Anthony on December 11, 2008. Kronk called law enforcement with tips in August 08 when he claimed he saw a partially submerged bag in the same area where the remains were found.
Two LE officers responded to Roy Kronk’s tips in August. One was Sgt Richard Cain and later, a female officer who only talked with Roy Kronk. She left because she figured Cain has already cleared the area and found nothing.
Roy Kronk stands alone.
Questions I’d Like to Ask Roy Kronk:
1. When you first discovered the suspicious bag on Suburban, what did you think when LE dismissed your finding?
2. After 3 consecutive days of reporting the suspicious bag with no results, did you think you were wrong?
3. Did you know Tim Miller searched this area Sept. 3, 2008?
4. If you would have known, would you have gone to the area to point it out to them?
5. What made you go back December 11, 2008?
6. Did you contact Leonard Padilla at any time during November 2008 for the possibility of getting the reward?
7. Did the reward ever cross your mind?
Closing:
It should be an embarrassment to LE that Caylee wasn’t found in August 2008 if in fact she was there. So much information and forensics were lost. I can’t believe how lucky this was for Casey, Hurricane Fay, the lazy police officer, a corpse of a snake and a few other coincidences that have worked in her favor, forensically speaking of course. But maybe she isn’t lucky at all. Her beautiful daughter is dead, presumed murdered, she’s facing the death penalty and perhaps Caylee’s precious little body wasn’t there on Suburban Drive from mid-June 2008 as it is speculated by so many. Just maybe there’s something else going on in this case that no one saw coming.
Hi JB! I have never posted here but I read when you put up a new post. I almost always disagree but enjoy reading different opinion when they are presented respectfully.
I did want to clear up something in your post. IIRC Officer Cain was suspened and would have been terminated had he not resigned. He was reprimaned for lying during the interview. The OCSO interviewed another officer who showed up but didn’t look and she told a slightly different story than officer Cain. That was the reason, not that he didn’t find Caylee. He lied. Had he told the truth, he would still have a job, maybe not on patrol for awhile, but he would still have a job.
It’s just too bad that Caylee wasn’t found earlier…..I do believe the A’s knew, I also think KC told them where to look. JMO
Thanks Sunny,
For the clarification. I’ll have to check again for the reason for his swift departure but Cain was called to an interview on Dec 18th by the higher ups because (as I understand) he didn’t follow through.
http://www.clipsyndicate.com/video/playlist/727/898277?cpt=8&title=pavoldi_broadcast_local&wpid=311
Here’s an audio of the interview with Yuri Melich. Although there’s no mention of the exact reason he was “let go” or fired, I still think his actions when he responded to Kronk’s call on Aug 13th caused quite a few other LE officers to think about how they handled their part in the investigation.
Like I mentioned in my post, I can’t imagine Ofc. Forgey searched on the east side and not the west side of Suburban. Considering the magnitude of this case, Finding Caylee would merit a badge of honor. Also, since LE Jason Forgey and his cadaver dog is searching an area less than 100 yards away, this seems likely to me, that his dog would have led him to the body if it was there. JMO
In any case, I think LE missed this opportunity due to lack of communication. This happens a lot in the work force whether it be LE or the medical field. Everyone assumes the other person took care of it and later find out, no one did.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and your kind words. In many ways, we’re all on the same page. Truth and justice for Caylee. That’s what motivates me.
Jb , Yes…I posted the “Tall Russell link Neck Breakin..about 2 wks ago…? I had suggested that there were friends on the site..and also other friends of friends. I also suggested that Casey may have been searching or someone who belonged to the site. Like “Lake Vaj”
What happened to all the comments for More Crumbs to Follow????
Good article JB. I believe Cain was fired, he was going to appeal then changed his mind. I’ll try to find the official report and determination when I get a chance. Welcome Sunny. I believe you are right that it was because he lied, officially but I strongly suspect he was the fall guy. Why was Kronk not reprimanded for changing the story of what color the bag was? His story changed a great deal more than Cain’s did.
Snoop, comments overflowed to another page when it got too many. Look at the bottom and you’ll see an “older comments” link.
Jb..I posted looking for the comments from the last commentary…
Now, I have read your new one. Very Good!
You say in your list of questions to Kronk (snipped)
3. Did you know Tim Miller searched this area Sept. 3, 2008?
EXACTLY! If he was so sure 3 times calling..I am sure he was following!
When they were going to search the area..wouldn’t he have jumped in
his vehicle and say I will point it out to you?
And I have little doubt why Cain got fired! However, if Cain had seen anything
I also have NO doubt that he would have jumped on it!!!! NO doubt!
IMO the remains were not there.
Over the last couple of years I have said this many times on others blogs as well as my own, here it is again. I/we were there on Suburban Dr on Sept 6th, we being me, my wife, daughter and son-in-law.
What people are forgetting now is that at that time we all were looking for a buried body, not one placed into a garbage bag. I would venture to say that a garbage bag with a body in it would be almost over looked.
We were not part of TES, I just had a hunch and wanted to check it out. When we got there it was overwhelming in that there was kudzu vine growing over everything. This made it almost impossible to see into any woods there as it was like a wall. On top of that it was very dark under tree cover even though it was a sunny day. Regardless of what people say there was water everywhere. If you stood on dry dirt, any place a foot below was covered with water. In some places it looked like a dump and it also looked well picked over.
In my opinion, for someone to go there and think they would come up with Caylee is just about impossible. Again everyone was looking for a buried body. We looked where we could and got maybe within 75 feet of the body but that area was under water as were so many places. We turned over a lot of trash looking for items and only one thing really got my attention. There was a very large ant hill about 3 feet long and a foot wide and my wife and I both thought possibly a body could be there. (Wrong place).
Six TES people showed up that afternoon, (I have photos) and we talked to them. They had an ATV and said it was useless with the vines and how thick it was there. They were not dressed to go into the thick woods, had nothing to cut the vines with and no heavy water proof boots or clothing. We told them where we looked and they went sort of in the same direction, mostly down the dirt road. They did tell us that they had talked to neighbors, (on the other side of the woods) who complained about a horrible smell and seeing a fire or at least smoke from a fire some time back.
I, like many people had a hunch, Roy did and he stuck with it. We left one day to go back and ended up at EPCOT instead. I even tried to enlist others to help us but it never panned out. http://johninflorida.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/anyone-want-to-go-search/
The point is if you took everyone who searched to the exact spot where Caylee was found and asked then “did you search right here”? If they were honest they would have to say no, all except Roy Kronk. Of course Casey knew but did she tell Bozo or her parents?
Just a side note. I can understand why no one would want to go into the woods there as you would almost need an armored suit and it would have to be waterproof. I actually started to make a list of what I would need to enter into the woods at that time thinking I would go to Bass Outlet and outfit myself. When it got over $250 I quit.
I think Cain got a bad wrap and I do not know for the life of me why he stopped his appeal. He went down the bank, he had to be within a few feet of the location (about 15 feet from the curb), he had a clear view. If he was concerned about snakes, he could have called in animal control. I want to note that I saw a story way back that said that Officers did search Suburban on August 12th, but I can’t find it. Aug 11th, 911 call, Aug 12th 911 call, Aug 13th tipline and officer shows up. This may be why Cain said that the area was cleared. I wish we could see Cains depo….
Rk had also called in a bunch of guns in the past to the police and when they came to the woods to see, there were no guns found. So this is not his first time doing something like this. I think if he could establish that he called it in in the past, then he could place the body there later and claim that he had called it in before, releasing him from any responsibiltiy? Just trying to figure out this scenario and yes I would not rule out reward and money. IMO
Hi JohninFlorida,
Thanks for the indepth description of this area. What you described sounds almost impossible for anyone to reach. Kudzo vines, muck, trash & the swampy water, I want your opinion here because you are so familiar with this area. In your opinion, do you think prissy Ms. Casey Anthony would trod through all of that muck?
Now I’m really curious because as you mentioned, no one BUT KRONK was persistant enough to continue when others stopped. From what you described, I would imagine Roy Kronk was filthy from the search, even on Aug 13th.
Thinking back to Aug 13 before Hurr. Fay maybe this area wasn’t quite as impossible as you described, so that still could explain it.
But what was Deputy Forgey’s and his cadaver dog’s excuse if he searched Suburban Drive in late July around the same time he searched the Anthony backyard?
I’m not doubting you when you say this area was extremely remote but I still don’t understand what stopped LE or the FBI from trying ..let’s say in October??
Hi everyone,
) Does this mean Caylee wasn’t buried? I hadn’t thought of that.
As you know, I’m more interested in the ones who searched and didn’t find her than the one who lied and said he spotted her while taking a whiz.
From what Johninflorida said, there was more than one garbage bag out there and they weren’t looking for a bag, they were looking for something that was buried. (insert shovel theory here
@ Snoop,
There’s a 2nd page on More Crumbs to Follow. Sorry for the confusion.
Welcome Johninflorida!
I think it is great to have someone here that was at that area. I have found that Jerry was asking searchers if they saw water on Suburban? Does the road go downhill toward the school? or is it flat? How do you know if “AREA A” was under water if you were 75 feet away? thanks nts
notthatsmart,
I remember that article with the guns. Who knows, maybe the guns are there now. lol Maybe he pointed out the area to clear it with LE before stashing them there. Wow, good thought. And that could apply to Caylee as well. It’s possible.
I can maybe understand why the searchers couldn’t reach the area, but I don’t understand why the cadaver dogs didn’t alert to her remains.
Jb , IIRC JJ had mentioned in his interview with police that there were very few bags. IMO
Statistics show that young mothers drop their dead children off often in woods near water near their home. That place on Suburban Drive just east of the stockade fence and fifteen feet from the curb is the first break in the woods as described by the 911 operator and a path. A path doesn’t happen naturally, something causes it even if it is deer, it is passable. Most witnesses admit that they were not close to Caylee’s final location. For the Police to not have searched this area seems insane to me. I googled it back in August of 08 and told my brother that I bet they find her in those woods. I can’t even imagine them not taking the area seriously. In the Haleighly case they were pumping out ponds. I just don’t get it. Or the truth will come out that they did search that spot. IMO
Notthatsmart,
I felt the exact same way. I have a friend who lives in the Orlando area who told me there were always people parked near the school searching this area. I feel very strongly that the general public was extremely interested in finding Caylee “on their own” as a heroic gesture and Yes, because of the reward of $125,000. Finding Caylee while in a search party wouldn’t fair out well with collecting a reward. This is just another reason, I find it so weird that Caylee wasn’t found a lot sooner.
This is what motivated Kronk, I’m sure.
Rk even admits to knowing about the reward in his interviews. Since we are on the subject of Rk, I wanted to address that in his interview with Yuri on Jan 6th he is talking about Aug 13th. It is amazing how he remembers in detail how it looked on August 11th and how it looked different on August 13th, but remember, he is looking back what 6 months? He even talks about the white board hanging over. Yet he says that it was only a 50 percent chance it was the same area he called back in August. Go figure… IMO
It’s late and I will try and answer the best I can to everything. The road is very flat in fact I had my Garmin eTrex Legend with me and it was set on track back but I erased it. In other words it showed exactly where we went as well as elevations.
We drove to the end of the street to start with. There is a chain link fence with a very large gate at the end, the school is to the left. The gate was open and I guess it was for the search. we could see horse shoe prints all over. (Note, it would be cruel to try and take a horse into the woods). There are two places where one can go into the woods if the gate is locked. One is near the end of the street where the fence just stops and there is grass there, it’s across from the school. (You could drive a car/truck into that area. The other is on the right as you come in maybe1/4 to 1/3 of the way down the street and where the wood fence stops and the chainlink starts, maybe 15 feet or a little more wide. This is where the body was found.
I walked from further down the road where the larger opening was back west toward the woods. As I got closer to where the body was in the woods it got lower and there was water. (At the edge maybe 1 foot deep and no telling how deep further in). There was less vines there but very dark looking in and hard to see.
Kronk apparently walked in along the north/south part of the wood fence and it had dried up there quite a bit. Even then with him being closer it must have been hard to see.
I would have to go back to my blog to see when I had planned to go back the second time but we wanted to go because it had not rained for weeks and we knew it would be dry. Casey was able to walk right into the woods in June as the rains had not started, it stays pretty dry till the end of June. The growth of the kudzu has not really started by then and it gets knocked down in the winter from the cold.
I also had hear that she played there a lot as a kid. I was a kid with woods around my house so I know about playing in woods. I found some older satellite photos showing what it looked like before many of the homes were built there. You could actually see paths in that area indicating kids were in there. I sent Tim at TES an e-mail asking him to search that actual spot, I circled it on a satellite photo I sent to him but decided to just go and look for myself.
I think it will be very easy for the prosecution to pull up topo maps and weather charts to show the conditions, it’s a matter of record. Anyone claiming there was no water there in the first week of Sept is nuts. Hope this helps. I have posted many photos and can do it again but they are of the people there and mostly at the end of the street.
The Prosecution did provide a water report that showed that “AREA A” was only under water from Aug 18th to Aug 28th and not during time of searches. I think the reason people are saying that the area was under water is because they are under the understanding that Caylee was much further in. She was only 15 feet from the Curb.
Page 7 of the pdf.
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21909869/detail.html
IMO
Man you guys are discussing some thoughts I have really had going around in my head and I really appreciate what you all have to say. If Casey did drop Caylee off where her body was discovered is there any time of day that would have been most likely, daylight or dark. I guess it would have stayed light until 9pm at that time of year. She would have had to park her car. I remember some speculation of a white car parked near the area but never heard what was concluded, or if it was actually a car. Remember that, anyone? It was pointed out on some video shot or something like that. Even if the sighting was a car it does not mean it was Casey’s. You people are so interesting to read, Right, wrong, half and half or whatever. Very very interesting conversations here. Thank you!
Hello all…John you must be aware living in Florida, that we had experience a long term
drought prior to Faye. The bad smell and fire was probably a fire as a result of the drought.
Prior to Aug 20th when Faye hit the Central Florida area, there was not flooding in that
area. I did not search for Caylee..however, I am familiar with the area. My father(now deceased)
had lived out that way for many years. Faye dumped nearly more water than the hurricanes
in 2004. I have no doubt that after Faye went through..there was flooding. There was extreme
flooding everywhere. Places that don’t even normally flood. But prior to Aug. 20/2008
we were DRY.
Also having said that..if Kronk seen a bag out there and something white I believe he
said that looked like it did not belong there..and an officer comes..PLEASE..someone
explain to me why his partners..nor Cain seen it. You said the searchers probably
were not looking for bags..But RK certainly had no problem thinking it suspicious.
So HTH did no one else see it?
RK’s interviews with LE… is being totally led by them and full of contracdictions.
I have went back a few times and listened again. IMO its crap..
The 2nd interview part 2
he says you know..I had other things to do..just starting a relationship with my son again
after 18 yrs. HELLO..then do you think his son told the truth about him calling and
telling him he was going to be on the news..he was finding Caylees body???
I think his son is telling the truth.
The skull is in the bag on Dec. 11th..but he seen something white with the bag Aug 11th.
On Dec. 11th he took a p*** 5-6 ft from the bag PLEASE…did he pee on the bag? he picked it
up and manipulate the skull he says in one of the parts. He calls the woman who lives with him his girlfriend..but at some part towards the end of interviews he says no roomate.
The guys with him seen nothing. The cop p***** him off so he didn’t go back. OH yeah, also
because his car blew up ..needed new engine..but then we see on Dec. 10th that he has another car repair for 800.00 but that didn’t stop himfrom going back on DEC. 11th to find
the remains!!!
He talks about it being a great place to put a body..more like he thought a good place
to dump it. He claims to be a bounty hunter. His girlfriend’s (who died of cancer) brother
says..it was bull. That he and his sister owned the biz and RK wouldn’t get out of bed..or drop
the video controls to his games..to do any work. SOOO..he has a history although he
paid to have it expunged of kidnap..he has other sorted background..a torte lawsuit for
some time..didn’t pay child support..no relationship for 18 yrs. with his son..couple
things in the Keys I found I believe worthless checks..along with every state he’s been in.
First he says he’s a pig a wanted the $$ so he didn’t tell anyone else..Then he says it wasn’t
about the $$???
Even His mother was arrested for petty theft for stealing clothes from JC pennys..And she worked
there..He now lives in Palm Bay with his parents..
Now does all that make him a murderer? Not necessarily..What would his motive be?
I don’t know. Where would the connection be..I don’t know.
But does it all create suspicion in my mind..YES..
It is really worth refreshing the memory and recapturing the contradictions..to go back
and listen. I have a few times..and still am not even convinced that it was as he said!
Was he involved in some kind of set up? Its possible..Anything’s possible in this case!
Here is a link..I’m sure there are many, but I had this u tube bookmarked..I am going to
listen again tomorow evening..
YIKES!!! Sorry JB didn’t realize it was going to do that LOL
YouTube – p1/3 – Second Police Interview of Roy Kronk – Casey / Caylee Marie Anthony
OHHHHHHH that link didn’t come out either Sorry..Well I am sure all have links from the media…may not want to listen to him again anyway LOL..No matter how many times listen..it doesn’t change anything LOL
No problem Snoop,
I thought it was a nice gesture? lol But O.M.G. I’ve come to the same conclusion as you and I think by listening to his interview you can get a better feeling about him than reading.
Thanks for breaking it down on RK. I totally agree. The thing I was trying to point out in my post was that “Kronk stands alone” and not in a good way.
Off to bed…
Gnite
Okaaaaaay, Roy’s lying. Okaaaaay, I bet he contacted someone to contact Leonard Padilla, because he wanted his money..Okaaaaay,.. I bet that’s why Leonard Padilla said on the Nancy Grace show on Dec 9th “what if they already have a body..Okaaaaaay..,.I bet Roy Kronk knew CA & GA were in Calif doing the Larry King.. Okaaaay..he’s full of shit..Okaaaaay…
Disclaimer; This is my version of RK talking.
Wow, busy place after I left. Good morning all. John, welcome. You may or may not remember me but I asked you a couple of questions at your site. You didn’t answer the last one and it may come up here again. First, I want to clarify for my own peace of mind and understanding, the plant material you refer to as Kudzu. While I don’t have a botanist degree I do have quite a bit of horticultural knowledge. You and Dave K both refer to Kudzu vine quite often but when I see any pictures or video of that area I see air potato as the predominant plant. I went back to the botany report and don’t even see kudzu on the list. Please see page 3810. Perhaps Dave prefers it would be Kudzu since it is used to treat diabetes. But Air potato is super easy to recognize. It clearly has a heart shaped leaf with parallel veins, where the kudzu leaf is a compound, 3 part leaf, more similar to poison ivy. Air potato is in the sweet potato family, properly named Dioscorea bulbifera. Kudzu is named Pueraria montana and has very noticeably fragrant purple flowers that should have been reported by Kronk, since it should have begun to bloom in August. It is a legume and that is obvious when you see the seed pods that would be there once bloom is finished. Air potato looks like sweet potato, grows small tubers. I have a miniature version of it growing on my property, Cinnamon vine. It grows rather rounded, small tubers, especially above ground. It has a hard time flowering in Florida but if it did, they are small and not that noticeable. See:
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/reco_cards/puemon.pdf
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/reco_cards/diobul.pdf
When you say the people on the other side of the woods smelled something awful, do you mean where the two women lived that reported a child screaming? If so, I would have lots of questions about when exactly. Of course, maybe it came from nearer the school, where a searcher reported a smell. By gravel path/road I assume you mean the area next to the school at the end of Suburban? You said that kudzu hasn’t begun to grow by June which seems quite strange to me. Are you sure of that? I live in a much colder climate and the relative I have is fully active in May. Still, there is an opening that is a path used to get in, as described by Kronk and LE, and shown in the videos.
If you watch the video closely that Hoover took, even the one that Gail St. John has, you will see that there was a clear opening in the woods that was a pathway, just like Kronk describes. There are areas that have a wall of vine but areas that have pathways in. Gail St. John was to the East, nearer the next light pole past where Caylee was found. Now, you say you got within 75 feet of where Caylee was but if you even stood on the shoulder of the road you would have been much closer than that. Here is a map of that area. http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9Ljg5MDArc3VidXJiYW4rZHJpdmUrb3JsYW5kbyUyYytmbCU3ZXNzdC4wJTdlcGcuMSZiYj0yOC4zODQyNTA4MTcyNjU2JTdlLTgxLjM0ODIwODU5MjcxNiU3ZTI4LjM3NjMyMTc1NDQ0MDElN2UtODEuMzYyMTU2MDc5NTkzNQ== You can see that this image was captured when the memorial was there. I’m trying to see where the chain link fense ends and it looks like it ends where the woods starts where Caylee was found. I also didn’t see any sign of fensing in the videos that Hoover and the Body Hunters took there. I would love it if you could save a copy of it, put it in paint or another drawing program, mark the spots you were and email it to JB since we can’t post images here. I would love to have this clarified once and for all. I know you think Casey put her there and is guilty as sin but please put that aside long enough to answer my questions. I honestly just want the whole story and am glad you came here to participate in seeking answers. I’ve seen the opening in the vegetation Kronk described so I know the area was accessible. I also don’t understand why anyone would come out to search wooded areas after Faye without being prepared to look in wet areas. I’m not referring to you, I’m referring to Tes and what would be their reasonable instructions under the circumstances. While they may not have wanted to put a 3 wheeler into the water they should have expected to have to walk through some water being in Florida after a hurricane passed through.
JB, what you say about the possibility of Kronk and Padilla talking before 12/11 and his suspicious comment about LE possibily already having her body makes a lot of sense, enough that Padilla needs to be deposed. Snoop, the biggest problem I have with Kronk’s statements is that he said he saw something white and round that looked like a skull. Now, no way that skull was white. That requires time in the Sun. Was it white or was it out of the bag or inside the bag. Did it roll out or was it already outside the bag. Notice how LE got him to change the statement because it didn’t fit with what they had written in their reports. They needed to establish that it had been there long enough for Casey to have put it there.
Good morning everyone
Such an interesting post, JB, and what intelligent commenters–I appreciate reading every one’s thoughts!
I can really relate to JohninFlorida’s description of the woods, the darkness, and the kudzu covering everything. Where I live, you could drive or walk by a terrible dump and never see anything but green because of the kudzu. The stuff grows like crazy.
Snoop & JB, I have never been able to get past RK’s interviews either, and the way he is stroked and led by LE. He spent more time ranting about how Cain dissed him than he did anything else.
Have a great day all!
Zuben — once again — you have blown me away!!!!
Well only thing I have to say about RK finding the body is I do not know why or how but thank God someone found her. I have a friend whose daughter has been missing for 27 years and she has been through hell all these years and has told me that even if they could find her daughters body it would be some kind of relief for her she could lay her to rest. I guess we truly would not know how we would feel unless we were in the situation. I think about HC all the time and wish someone would find her but one thing I do know are these children are not alone ,earthy body may be here but they are with the angles now and some day they will see the true justice done.
What many are forgetting is the privacy fence that did NOT go up until AFTER casey tossed caylee. she maybe had her pontiac backed into that area on multiple occasions (hiding from her parents til they left?)
did they ever find and interview the child on the bycicle that saw her backed in there?
Zuben, sorry I didn’t see your comment until I posted mine– I have gully full of what I thought was kudzu behind my house, but I could swear that the pictures you linked and subsequent ones I looked at don’t look anything like what I’ve been calling kudzu all my life
What is that stuff back there?!
Zuben knows!!!!!!!!!!
The wood fence has been there for quite a while, the chain link fence may not have been there when Casey put Caylee there. Use the county GIS to look at the aerial views it is much better. From what I have seen in video tapes shot by various people, most were further down the street and walking in the grassy area. It was sort of hard to notice when driving into Suburban Dr that there was an opening between the two fences so most people ended up at the grassy area where you could easily walk into.
Also the spring of 2008 was pretty dry in Orlando. Just south and along the coast they were getting lots of rain, I know because I have over 2000 shrubs on my property and I keep track of the rain. When Faye came it dropped over 15 inches in some places around Orlando. I can say with certainty that that spot was dry before the storm.
I also have an aerial showing what looks like a white car parked in the spot where Caylee was found. It could be my imagination playing tricks on me. I often thought she might have parked her car there, using it as an office to text and talk on the phone. She could have doped up Caylee and let her sleep in her car seat while Casey did her business. It would have also been real close to her home for food and bathroom.
I will post the photos (links) but it will go to moderation so they will need to be pulled out. Hope I answered the questions but it is my thoughts so form your own opinions.
Here ya go, I may have doubles in there, hope not.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/3153024055_3b96ed7daa_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/3153023323_f0a3ba4fac_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3056/2834447905_1bde71e945_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2834447647_167e5e4bc4_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2693/4501096036_ee53287712_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4501095388_09ae920460_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4501100574_b7e38cfffc_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2697/4501100482_637d0e249a_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4501098820_6974cfa23a_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2749/4500461395_c4f822a843_o.jpg
Possible white car.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4394031912_11b9622a89_o.jpg
Thanks, Hazaka. Don’t give me too much credit though. Like I said, I’m a jack of all trades and don’t consider myself a master of any quite yet. But I do know enough about both of these plants to highly doubt it would take 6 months of growing to get roots 2-4 mm size. Poison ivy could top that. These plants aren’t knicknamed ‘A mile a minute’ for nothing.
Hello Cecelia. By privacy fence are you talking about the solid wooden fence that encloses the back yard of the house on the corner that adjoins the property where Caylee was found? That fence is shown both on Bing maps which has very recently been updated and on Google maps or Google earth, which is using images that are at least 8 years old. That fence has been there for some time and is the only privacy fence I see there. The other is a chain link fence, down the road.
Myrrh, does your plant look like the other link, heart shaped? That is the Dioscoria, Air Potato vine. Perhaps one of the new, tiny leaves left residue behind if it laid on the tape and that is the heart sticker residue that magically disappeared. If there were dust or muck, especially decomp fluid on the tape, any leaf laying on it would leaf some type of impression behind. If it were decomp it would have quickly burned and killed the leaf. If the air potato isn’t your plant, you can pull up the doc page I mentioned, google the botanical or scientific name of each to get pictures. Most likely you can find them all on this University of Florida site: http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/node/133
John, I look forward to JB releasing that from moderation, if that is where it is, and look forward to answers to my questions. Thank you.
I have been coming to FL since 1958 and lived here first in 1962, moved back in 1978, been here ever since. Call it what you want, we’ve always called it kudzu Vine. I had Sweet Potato vines as ground cover in my front yard and it is very different. In Sept we drove up to NC, TN and VA and it seemed to cover everything up there also. It’s there, what difference does it make what the proper name is? Just saying!
My intention wasn’t to offend or nit pick over technicalities, John. I apolozize if you took it that way. I just wanted to be clear because if there were kudzu in one part of that woods, nearest the road and air potato in another, it would make a huge difference and it would need to be clarified so everyone understands the same thing. The botanist report is a good example of how important details are. He doesn’t even say what species the root he is writing about belongs too. That is crucial to judge whether or not it would take 6 months to reach that diameter. Each plant has its own rate and size of growth, modified by environmental conditions. Some plants I’ve handled have roots that large right after germination.
Regarding both the open path leading into the wooded area and the air potato vine, please see the 50 second and 6:20 mark of Hoover’s video for both. Notice at the 6:20 point you can see a log down on the side of the pathway just as LE described where Caylee was. It is just a few feet into that open area. It may not be the same spot though, because the log was described as still being somewhat in midair on one end and I can’t tell if this one is. I also don’t recall a couple of those items being described, such as the sign on the ground which is not a Kindercare sign. If you look around the 8 minute mark you can see that there are areas that are more open.
High all…
John thank you for your 1st hand view of the area. I do have one question about going into an area like that. I spent years hiking hunting and fishing but knew the hazards about where I was going. My question to you is about the snakes in areas like this. I have only been told by a few but is there not an inherent danger of snakes in that setting? Poison Type?
The only reason I can think of for Cain not searching was absolute laziness on his part. He probably didn’t want to get dirty, wet or the thing I don’t know prepared for snakes. Kronk still remains a little mystery to me but I can’t tie him with any of the Anthony’s.
Caylee’s search; The last part of July, Aug and Sept do you all remember they were looking for a Live Caylee? The Anthony’s did not actively get involved with searches because all they knew, was what Casey told them. That’s all LE knew as well. They spent a lot of time trying to track down Casey’s stories. The police do not organize search parties unless they have some kind of evidence to warrant such. Can anyone honestly say that in the first few months of this investigation on info they had…..anyone of us could have done better? I believe more than ever a lot of mistakes were made by everyone concerned. The only thing I can’t believe is that LE, The FBI, The State, Scientific Experts and the players involved conspired to frame Casey Anthony to be arrested and still in jail after 2 1/2 years.
The only possible time signature to the placement of Caylee based on facts…will be the plant life that grew around bones that were found. Any other theory will be just that. Based upon George’s interviews, he was the last family member to see Caylee, the rest is speculation unless one chooses to believe Casey’s interviews. The odds on one of the people in her stories disappearing are actually pretty good. Unfortunately 7-8 people from her stories all never seen again….not probable.
Thanks to all….
I don’t nit pick as you say, if it gets to that, I’m outta here and I go back to my own blog. In my opinion, (IMO) as they say it today it makes no difference to me as to what plants are or were there, that is why there are experts. They will use names I can’t even spell. If I said to my friends and family there were potatoes vines there, they would probably ask if I bought any home. I saw kudzu and it is what I only know it by, THE END.
I am a bike rider and I ride the Rails to Trails in this area, I rode today. I ride about 70 miles through all sorts of orange groves, cow pastures and heavy very thick woods. After searching on Suburban Dr I began to notice a lot when I rode. Where the kudzu Vine did not grow I could see clearly into the woods about 40 to 60 feet. The tree cover prevents a lot of the undergrowth and it is dark. When I pass the vine, I see only the vine, that’s how thick it is, it’s like a wall. In June there was very little vine.
So in my mind to try to figure out where someone was standing and what they could see would be impossible. You can only figure the general area. I know where I was and what I saw but my wife who was next to me might describe it very different. If you look at a video and you had been there you might spot some trash and know where the person was standing, maybe!
In my opinion also Roy not only entered the woods from the north side, because he was reading meters there he most likely entered from the south side along the short side of the fence. The view would be much different either way.
I won’t enter into conspiracy theories, I see it as Casey killed her kid, Roy was thinking a lot like me and he found her and to me he is a good guy. I’ll wait until the trial to see what is revealed and I’m busy doing other things, don’t have time to figure out the names of plants, sorry.
Snakes, I forgot about the snakes. I have seen some while riding my bike, rattle snakes, big ones. I ran over a black snake, went thump, thump and it went into the woods. I also killed a Coral snake trying to come into my garage, have pictures. I worry more about bears while I am riding, not kidding they are all over.
When I was searching I did not think much about snakes as we were making noise with our feet. I lived on an island off the coast of FL, very undeveloped and saw one snake in 20 years. I never worry about them.
In Sept we were hiking in the Blue Ridge and Smoky mountains and I was very worried about snakes as well as bears. So what I am saying, it is no different here than where you live unless you are in the middle of NYC then I guess it is bed bugs.
I’m sorry John, that’s fine. As I said, I meant no harm and am glad you’re sharing with us. Please don’t make more of it than I intended. Again, I apologize. I haven’t gotten the idea that anyone here is suggesting Casey was framed in some sort of conspiracy by LE, if that is what you’re thinking. I do know that I’ve seen no sign of them looking for Jeffrey Michael Hopkins and haven’t seen an interview with the co-worker who said there were people by these names that they worked with, at least remembering the first names. So, I do think there must be more before ruling everything Casey said a lie. Yes, it will come down to what the experts say, most likely.
I have to add one more thing. There are a great number of people that have been convicted, some even killed, that were innocent. I’m sure many were convinced LE was right at that time. Only LE and the Prosecutor can take responsibility for that injustice. There are, at the very least, some serious mistakes made that take away at least a portion of another person’s life. At worst, they withhold important exculpatory evidence or slant their reports to their favor, leading a jury to the wrong conclusion. An honest mistake I can understand, if they are doing their job correctly. Some of what I’ve seen and heard in this case is beyond poor quality. The way Kronk was handled is one good example.
I guess that is why we have appeals. From my point of view the prosecution has done an outstanding job, the defense is like the pits. That’s how I feel and I won’t argue about it with anyone as it would be like saying which is better, Ford or Chevy?
I think America has a pretty good system, at least better than stoning in Iran.
Well one thing I would have done if I was Casey and I had proof that the people she mentioned existed I would have told JB if LE could not find these people then take some of my money and track them down after all its my life.
diane
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hello ————- until we’re faced with this — I’m not sure what anyone of us would do —————
Hazaka, your correct and I pray I never find myself in this position. But I feel that she deserves the best defense possible and when all that money was been used why not use some of it to help find some of the people she had told everyone about. If LE could not or did not locate them then someone should, I agree this many people do not disappear off of the face of the earth.
JB jus got in…OkAAAAAAAAAAy? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel the same way. Everytime I listen.
I mean there is a couple parts to the 1st interview..and a few or better to the 2nd interview..
He talks that way in all!!! LOL cussing and arrogant..Okaaaaay…And not all IMO believable..
Jb ..Too Funny Okaaaaaay..
John, again thanks for your input. The snake thing did bother me because I have encountered them before, mostly rattlers. By the way, I have read your blog and appreciated your views dealing with the Cumming’s case.
Zub, I would like to think that as big as this case is, LE didn’t just go through the white pages and declared these people didn’t exist. I do wonder though why I have not seen more about the search for them in discovery. I think this may be why your are on edge about JMH, Juliet and Zanaida. I really don’t think that the PA would go into a trial not knowing and above all the defense would have tracked down the three to vilify Casey’s statements.
I have not seen anything about McDonald being deposed as well as L Buchanan. It’s making me wonder if McDonald exists and what’s holding up LB.
So now I’m speculating….
One last crazy note; I watched a couple of videos this last weekend. 1. The 100th Episode of One Tree Hill….This was about a nanny that kidnapped a young boy….the nanny fits the description of Zanny to a T. 2. Natural Born Killers….this is a huge stretch…Juliet Lewis in the beginning of the movie hated her father because he molested her….like I said a stretch..in a sense the character (Juliet) fit Casey’s demeanor.
JB as always Thank You for this venue!
Jb..yes perfect timing… Everyone knew Cindy and George to be on Larry King..Even Nancy
Grace..whom RK’s girlfriend , oops roomate..watched every night. Meanwhile that very morning
Casey was waiving her rights to a speedy trial in the courtroom.
You are right Damagdpets. IMO, the missing statement from Casey’s co-worker, Heather, who told Lee these people existed is huge, well pretty big, at least. I know she exists because I’ve seen her myspace and the comment from Casey about the blackjack. Her last name is Hunt now. I believe I posted the link to her space and that comment here somewhere. If she really didn’t say that to Lee I’m sure LE would love to have that on tape. The whole JDHopkins questioning seemed so silly to me because they knew very well that Casey said his middle name was Michael, and was not her Jeff Dale friend. Maybe they’re holding back their investigation into these people as their smoking guy? Pretty risky, especially in Judge Perry’s court. Maybe they just assumed she was lying about them too but making assumptions isn’t part of their job description.
As for Laura B, if she doctored anything that investigation would need to be completed before any depo and it might eliminate any depo if she were guilty. I don’t think she is though, from what I have seen. Well, I’m turning in early tonight. Have a good one all.
Hi Damagdpets,
I’ve said this numerous times before and I will try to make my point again. Are you saying that LE couldn’t really look for a deceased Caylee because they were too busy looking for a live Caylee?? If so, then that means LE wasn’t absolutely sure of what they smelled coming from Casey’s trunk. Because if they positively knew, they would have brought the whole family in for questioning and used the old “divide and conquer” technique that LE has used for centuries along with removing that car ASAP, not the next day. None of the above happened.
If as you said, they initially believed Caylee was kidnapped then where’s the Amber Alert?
I don’t mean to come down on LE. I respect them for what they do but there are bad cops. There are lazy cops. There are cops who will build a case on anyone whether they have evidence or not. just saying, that’s not the point I’m trying to make.
Personally, I don’t believe LE thought Caylee was alive for one minute. Saying that, then they haven’t done a good job in this case. The child was 14 houses away. The shovel was borrowed for one hour which should have told them that the body was close, IMO.
I’m sorry, but I think they missed the boat on this one.
As for conspiracy, I haven’t presented one yet..LOL. One of these days I’ll pick one out for you out of my big file of KC conspiracies. Believe me, there’s quite a few.
Have a nice evening.
JB, The police may have done a cursory search at best but based on the information they had in the beginning, that’s what they had to work with. The example here is the Zahra Baker case…LE didn’t randomly drive 8 miles and started to search for her. They had leads that took them to the areas they searched. Caylee being 14 blocks away could have been 140 blocks away. As John mentioned…he saw people searching around Suburban. I can’t imagine how many people like John went out and searched without being associated with an organized effort.
The Amber Alert always bothered me too because I would like to have my bases covered but thinking about it Amber Alerts are usually posted within hours of a kidnapping and not 30 plus days…so I’m wondering if the time had anything to do with it. They had a description of a car but a month old. LE only gathers information and it’s up to the Prosecutors office to decide where to take it. I agree LE made mistakes in the beginning of this case and anymore I do believe there is such a thing as a bad cop. From what I have read, I would agree with you if this took place in Texas or a couple other states if Casey was Black.
At this point with Ashton and his office making an incredible mistake years ago and then costing the state twice as much to prosecute someone twice…..I have a tough time believing that the they would do anything to jeopardize this case, especially in front of Perry. I say conspiracy because sometimes it’s portrayed that way. The only thing that looks like a conspiracy is what the Anthony family did to hinder the investigation as well as the lies they told from one interview to another deposition. I believe they have the right person in custody…….whether they can prove the charges remain to be seen. I have to put my faith in the system regardless of it’s flaws…it’s all we have.
I think their would be guidelines for LE to follow regarding an Amber Alert and I am sure a child missing for 31 days would not be in one of these. I would think someone could find this out. I do think LE dropped the ball on some things, but we are all human and very capable of making mistakes in our jobs. I think they will pick a jury who once both sides present their case will be able to deliver a fair verdict, I still think we have the best system in the world at this time. I think no matter our opinions we want the right person held responsible for this crime.
Thanks Damadgpets,
You’re one of the few bloggers that actually address my questions. I have a strong suspicion that this case will boil down to Kronk, his credibility, the actual finding of the remains and the one’s who “DID NOT” find the remains.
Most of us have followed this case from the beginning. I’ll admit, I didn’t see how any Defense team could save Casey but now I’m not so sure. Do you think the location and the way Caylee’s body was found is key to this case? I think it’s the deal breaker.
diane said,
snipped:
I think they will pick a jury who once both sides present their case will be able to deliver a fair verdict, I still think we have the best system in the world at this time. I think no matter our opinions we want the right person held responsible for this crime.
————————————–
That’s all we can hope for.
I think it is just interesting to try to make sense out of things. I have found things in the docs that are disturbing to me. Just reading JJ’s first interview and how he explained how he came to think that Caylee was 40 to 50 feet in. Others as well thinking the body was much further in. When I read JJ’s interview and I look at the water report, I visualize him being knee deep in water that he has already gone much farther in than Caylee was suppose to be. I think the defense is going to be able to show that he is either lying or he is hugely mistaken. His first email to John A made sense. It was when he changed his story that it stopped making sense. He seemed very worried in his interview that he had done something wrong. He was worried that the tape would be exposed that had attorney conversations about his divorce. The police were not making him feel at ease and they were not correcting him as to the body location. It seems he got a new Lawyer and that the other one quit. I wonder why? seriously? I can not find the police interviews of the other searchers on Laura B’s tes doc. There are so many police interviews missing from the docs. Where are they and how long can the state withhold these things?
Zuben,
I hope the State releases discovery info re; JD Hopkins and Heather McD. Hunt soon. It’s ridiculous how long it took them to release what they found out about Juan G. I found the supoena to Sawgrass dated Oct 6th, 08.
I guess the State didn’t want to interfere since the media at the time was having a field day with the protesters and lynch mob. I think that finding an interesting person like JMG who worked at Sawgrass Apts would of have put a damper on all of the fun.
JB, The only thing I think that’s critical to where Caylee was found is the plant life that grew around her bones. I think this would be the only forensic way of placing her there for best educated guess on time. As far as who did it….I have not seen any tests that show proof of anyone but more questions. Guilt by proximity?
If you have not read this one take a look….going to the jury…if this person is convicted it will because he is an illegal alien with criminal history.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/16/dc.chandra.levy.trial/index.html?hpt=Sbin
Notthatsmart, The prosecution is not holding those depos up….they fought for a long time to get Brandon Sparks depo because he refused and Laura Buchanan was scheduled twice and am not sure if she has complied yet. I believe the defense already has their statements.
In the JJ case, I’m glad the police didn’t correct him….that could be taken as them leading JJ into want they wanted to hear. His testimony could end up being discounted because of two stories. I think he was worried too because he recorded someone illegally and I think he knew it was wrong. I can understand why his attorney backed out after learning about the recording. The area where Caylee was found is extremely hard for anyone visualize with out being there or having a 3D type of picture. The ground drops off quite a bit from the street and has a lot of different elevations that can’t be seen in a 2D picture.
Nite All……
Have you all watched the video belonging to Gail St. John taken on August 11, the same day Kronk and crew were there? The most important thing I noticed is that they “felt” something there but their dog went the opposite direction. They stopped to the East of where Caylee was left and the dog too his master further East, not West. Also, the dog didn’t react to a dead snake. She is on the defense witness list.
I just reread Kronk’s written statement and first interview on Dec. 11. What jumped out at me is that Lee is criticized for chuckling when he’s nervous but Kronk, 2 hours after finding a dead child, chuckles when he tells LE they can’t take his work stick. Also, when asked to describe everything he saw, he says he saw white fabric that looked like clothing or a pillow. I assume he might be talking about the blanket because the bag would obviously be tan or off white and canvas, not looking like clothing or a pillow. So why no mention of the laundry bag? The black bag was still partially inside it, the way I read the LE report. I understood the blanket to be mostly underneath the bags. The sketch he dated Dec. 17 (doc pg 3992) with a drawing when he was there in Aug. shows he and the co-worker parked just East, same direction St. John was, and he walked in the woods just West, behind his truck. He marks the area just East as having standing water, which matches the elevation map I saw, that area being a lower elevation. That would explain why he went in further West, not straight off from the trucks. But why did the dog go the other way, to where the water was, instead of back that direction, if Caylee was there. Now, if you look at page 4001, Dean’s sketch, he shows Kronk going in from where his truck was parked and marks where Kronk said he sees a skull, further West. So perhaps he went in, saw water and headed West to dryer ground? That sketch was dated Jan. 6, noting Aug 11 where the other sketch had Aug 10 written on it.
On pg 4003, Jerold White is being interviewed. He had made a not after Kronk’s tip, dated Aug. 14, saying that area had been searched. When asked how he came to that conclusion he said that Melich told him that when he question. He said he had discussed that Aug. 12 tip from Kronk with Melich the previous day, too, which would have been Dec. 18. The tip follows and Kronk is reported as saying there was, “… a silver metallic thing…” and …”a little white round object…”
Unlike the night of July 15, both responding officers’ reports are in discovery. Both officers, Porter and Turso, tell the same story, that Kronk said the skull rolled out of the bag when he lifted it with his stick. Did anyone notice there is a Tammy listed in Kronk’s cell memory? I wondered if his elusive girlfriend, implied by some to be a CO is Tammy Uncer. I always just assumed that was Padilla nonsense but who knows.
The Aug 11 transcript of his call says it was a grey bag and something white. (see beginning page 3144) The next day he said, …”a gray, vinyl like-bag, like a pool cover or something like that and it looked rather suspicious.” He goes on to describe the white board on the tree, leading me to believe he is talking about the same place as she was ultimately found. He said there was something white and round underneath it.
In his Jan. 6 interview, the investigation into Cain’s conduct, beginning on doc page 5434, he says that the bag wasn’t as prominent or visible on Aug. 13 as it was on Aug. 11. Now, why would that be? That mile a minute vine had probably grown considerably in that 2 days. He said he was sure the white dome was a skull and told Cain that, while directing him to it. Now, backing up to the call transcript, he said it was under that white board on the tree. That isn’t where it was found, as far as I can tell, unless LE failed to describe another sign on a tree. Now on pg 5441 he goes on to say that he again saw the white object he’s calling the skull, on the 13th when Cain and the female officer came, even though he didn’t enter the woods. He could see it standing at the edge of the treeline. He goes on to say that he was in the same area in Dec. as in August and it basically looked the same, adjusting difference in time of day, and that sort of thing. The most interesting thing about this interview is that Kronk said he was told by the first responders on Dec 11 to shut his mouth, not say anything about having already called this in back in August. It looks like there is more than just Cain that needs a spanking.
Well, we’re off to have stitches removed. Have a great day all.
Wew —- Zuben! and good luck to your son!
Zuben I understood that RKs girlfriend did not even work in the building Casey was held in. My understanding she worked in some other building in another capacity not in corrections.
Diane: —————- “I am not sure if everybody forgot that Roy Kronk’s girlfriend at the time was working in the jail as a guard. She evidently overheard Casey telling Jose where the body would be found. Kronk’s girlfriend overheard the conversations between Casey and Jose and repeated it to her boyfriend Roy Kronk.
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/casey-anthony-case-d... ”
So — again…….. what did you hear???? And from where?
Isn’t the Examiner a lot like the Enquirer? I thought it was all just gossip and an unfounded rumor that he had a girlfriend working anywhere near there. If it were true I’m sure Baez would be busting someone for eavesdropping on a privileged conversation. But, I also don’t see anything that would lead me to believe any conversation like that ever took place. I am even more sure after hearing so many people say they support her innocence and are willing (within reason) to work pro bono. I wish Benevides would have one of his contacts on the outside donate some of his money for travel expenses so this crew could keep working together. I’d love to watch them all in action.
How about a little duck tape trivia? I just watched a Mythbuster episode with my son. They built a sailboat out of tape and it actually sailed very nicely. They had a rowboat with a hole, plugged it dry and it held tightly for 30 minutes. Even then it was a tiny trickle so did the job quite well. They took off the tape and attempted to repair the hole while in the water. It was difficult but they did actually get it to stick some what, better inside the boat that under the water on the bottomside. It would take one person bailing while the other rowed to land, though, to be safe.
The greatest accomplishment was the construction of a cannon, completely out of duck tape. They loaded it with black powder and an 18.5 lb cannonball. It shot it 136 mph, reaching 124 foot. The real cannon next to it was able to shoot it 500 yards but I think that is quite an amazing feat, considering it was made with nothing but tape. The tape didn’t melt and the walls held their shape even after two successful firings.
Typo. The duck tape cannon shot the ball 125 yards.
Hazaka, about RKs girlfriend I got that from Vals blog, Maura in a post RK girlfriends name at the time was Michele Carpentiere who worked in the human resource department not in the place that Casey was held, that is where I took it from.
I suppose it is possible that she had contact with an jail employee. Our Hr person helps us fill out paper work if we buy supplemental insurance (aflac) and if we have payroll problems. Employee’s very seldom stop by that office. I don’t know if she is involved in exit interviews. IMO
Looks like Buchanan was interviewed today…
http://www.wftv.com/news/25830173/detail.html
@ JohninFlorida,
“That’s why they have appeals??” I’m sorry but I take issue with that. Maybe if our judges and prosecutors do it right the first time there would be no need for so many falsely accused people to sit in jail for years and sometimes decades. To say, it’s okay, they’ll get an appeal is really minimizing the reality that prison sucks.
@Notthatsmart and diane, Good point.
Since Michele Carpentiere worked in the HR dept. she could have met Tammy Unser. For all we know, Michele and Tammy might be friends and hang out after work. As usual for this unusual case, there’s always that odd connection..somewhere.
HI all — re: Kronk’s girlfriend — who knows what she knew and what she said or didn’t say …. to be honest…. the “story” that she passed information onto to Kronk is something I recall from way in the beginning….
All are right about RKs girlfriend. I am sure if their is a friend connection LE has got the info on it. I agree with JB if this story was true JB would be all over it.
ah ——– but …. perhaps Baez is …. and we just don’t know … anything is possible in this case … too too strange….
Good morning everyone. Way off topic, but Zuben, you and your son would probably really enjoy watching the Red/Green show (Canadian comedy). I used to get it on PBS — they find and test all kinds of crazy things to do with duct tape!
Thank you Damagd,
http://www.wftv.com/news/25830173/detail.html
Well..WFTV & Kathi Belich are consistent. The entire article is speculation, IMO.
KB doesn’t know what question the Defense asked Laura Buchanan. lol The article read KC admitted she used chloroform on Caylee which is not true. I read ALL of the jailhouse letters, the word chloroform was never written by inmate Robyn Adams or KC. Unless WFTV is referring to Maya Dekovic’s claim? If so, consider the source, Maya D. is a liar. Just too ridiculous to discuss.
I would love to know what LB said in her depo. Also does anyone know if DC has done a depo? I guess the holidays will keep me very busy and I can get back to the case in Jan. It should start to get very interesting then we may find out more with the hearings starting to be held the closer we get to trial. Happy Holidays everyone.
snipped from
http://www.wftv.com/news/25830173/detail.html
“The defense is using Buchanan to argue someone else put Caylee’s body in the woods after October 14, once Casey was locked up on no bond. But Wednesday, Buchanan’s lawyer told WFTV she doesn’t even know exactly where Caylee was found.”
Why October 14?
hi diane,
As far as I know, Dominic Casey hasn’t been deposed by either the State or Defense?
I know I’ll be busy for the holidays. Happy Holidays to you too.
JB, I know it sounded strange to me too. The defense is using the Oct 14th because Casey was in jail after that date. It is their wishes that Caylee was placed there after that date. I think it too hard to prove that right now.
I’m more worried about the background of LB and the TES document. I’ll have to wait to read her depo because it’s starting to sound like TES never had this document. That bothers me…
Thanks, Myrrh. I’ll watch for it. Damagdpets, thanks for the link. Now we know what L Buchannan looks like. A pretty young woman. Leave it to Belich to create a dramatic story out of almost anything. The case is falling apart. OoooKaaaay! Her attorney said she said she searched that area but doesn’t know exactly the spot she was found so can’t say at this point, if she was exactly on that spot or not. Makes sense to me. It also makes sense that if her and others were in that general area, if there were a canvas bag with a garbage bag sticking out, it would have been noticed, especially being next to a pathway were people can enter the dense growth. That’s what I don’t understand with people like MD. It is clear from the video St. John’s crew took, that there were a couple of openings in the dense growth. That is the area anyone would be drawn too, especially if they needed to relieve themselves or to dispose of something so it wouldn’t be visible from the road.
As for the documents with her name on them, I’ll have to get all that up in front of me again to compare. I know that there were papers with her and JJs name on them found by LE in Texas, held by Miller and not in the paperwork he said was everything connected to Suburban drive, left in Orlando for the defense. Are you talking about different pages than those?
There is a phone hearing today with the JAC. It looks like they object to the DNA testing too. It looks like Wesh is doing their best to compete with Belich. http://www.wesh.com/video/25834299/detail.html Keeling’s report is rather misleading though. The 30 page report he is referring to is dated Sept. 9, 2009 and concerns the trunk bugs. He says that Haskell inspected Casey’s trunk in December and it still clearly smelled like decomposition, implying it was of human origin. But no where in the report does he say human deomposition , when referring to the smell in the trunk. Page 6 of that report states that this bug is also attracted to other sources of decomposing organic matter. Keeling would like us to believe it is only humans. Notice that when he asks Haskel about the smell, he only says decomposition, not human decomposition. On page 7 he mentions decompositional fluid in the carpet from the trunk but yet there is no report saying there was any fluid found at all in the carpet. So, I would have to assume he is assuming. News just isn’t news any more, it seems. It is more closely related to fantasy since there are additions of details that aren’t included in other documents. Oh, I get it. Maybe the state is withholding a report saying there was human decomp fluid in the carpet, claiming work product protection. That’s how the list of human decomp air sample chemicals is being withheld so far.
http://www.wesh.com/r/25840778/detail.html Wasn’t the state that originally demanded that if the defense was going to carry out DNA testing they should be ASCLAD certified and the judge agreed to that little detail. Well, the JAC objects to out of state but can’t confirm that any in Florida are certified so Perry gave the go ahead for the PA lab.
I would not discuss our legal system here, I was referring to the automatic appeal if given death.
Zub, he is probably referring to the scrapings on the carpet that produced volitail fatty acid. The one component found by Dr Vass was butric acid. I think this is what he means by decompositional fluids. Not sure. I found that the components that were consistent with humans but not consistent with animals were man made components. Butric acid may be found in many products, but a good example of a component consistent with humans and not consistent with animals would be perfume or hair products, lotions ect. There are many more. IMO
Zub, You were right about the state asking for certification. There was alot of testing by the prosecution in Florida labs that were certified. Perry may have given them out of state permission for a specific type of DNA testing that is not done in Florida but in the US. I have a feeling that the testing the defense wants done is more “Touch DNA” tests.
I wanted to bring LB back up because of her sworn statement to the defense signed 10/24/09, specifically……
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/32326505/Casey-Anthony-Defense-team-Laura-Buchanan-signed-statement
#6. I personally searched near the privacy fence and worked my way towards and then beyond the spot where the body was found.
I found this odd when her attorney responded to Kathi B the following…..
“I believe she signed an affidavit that she searched the area where the body was found. Somebody may have suggested where the body was found, but she has never been to that area to see precisely where the body was,” Cassidy explained.
She signed the statement and now her attorney is giving a completely different account.
Zub & JB…don’t yell at me yet!!! Without having her depo to look at….it does not ring well with me. I can’t imagine what the motivation was…..but it’s looking like her statement and her depo will be completely different. It also makes much more sense why she took ill and got a new attorney. She could very well face charges but I hope for her sake she told the truth…this time.
Well FYI remember RK corrected LE in later interviews that it was his ROOMATE..So his
story changed about her being his girlfriend.. OkAAAAAy?
dmagdpets..It makes sense to me… All I believe that is saying is she is familiar with
close proximity of where the remains were found..But she has not been taken the the precise spot on the ground near the old oak tree?…LOL
Hey notthatSmart!
Nice to see you again. Good comment too. Hmm…I think you should change your name to notthatdumb.
Snoop,
Yes, RK talks in riddles. I’ve had to listen to his interview a few times and still some of what he says is just ridiculous. Most of it, just doesn’t make sense..OoooKaaaaay
He reminds me of the teacher on South Park…(can’t remember his name)
I can’t wait till he gets on the stand!! I wonder which attorney is going to do the cross examination..Maybe Linda Kenny Baden could do it by Skype?? She’s really good!! Or maybe Cheney Mason will use the “good old boy” approach. I can’t wait!!
I think it’s understandable if LB can not say exactly where she searched. Which brings me to the 32 other searchers…They don’t know “exactly” where they searched either.
Whatever..they were all within 60ft of the remains, at some point.
She’s a respectable person and wants to be sure before she signs anything. We didn’t hear any of TES searchers object to signing statements when they weren’t absolutely sure.
Kathi Belich is a pure “D” media wh*r@ putting her spin on everything she reports. Just the facts KB, just the facts. I purposely left out the “Maam” part.
NotThatSmart, are you referring to the air test? I just skimmed that doc and didn’t find it. Butyric acid is commonly found in sweat, vomit, cheese. It is found in all sorts of animal and plant fats/oils. In fact, all of the fats found on the paper towel can be found in anyone’s kitchen, if I recall correctly.
Damagdpets, from what I can see, there isn’t a single private ASCLAD certified lab in Florida, only ones controlled by law enforcement. http://www.ascld-lab.org/accreditedlabs.html#fl
I guess it is a matter of perception as to what is said. She said she searched from the wooden fense, East, covering the area. He said she searched that area but couldn’t say she looked at the exact spot where Caylee lay because she doesn’t know where that spot is exactly. Now, I picture myself in her position to imagine what I would say if I had searched that area. Even if I had not walked every square inch, as if I were sweeping the ground, I would say the same as she did. I think what is important is that she is saying she didn’t see or smell anything that would lead her to believe Caylee was in that wooded lot at that time. If I searched from the wooden fense, East and beyond the wooded area, I would say I searched the area where Caylee was found. It would also be true to say that I couldn’t know if I walked the spot where Caylee was until that spot is pointed out to me. Of course, I have calculated it pretty closely, based on details in the docs. But she may not have done that. I’m sure the state or defense will show her a picture of exactly where she was. Or perhaps she will need to go there, but it looks too different now. Not yelling at you but I don’t see a contradiction between her statement and his. Oh, she got an attorney that she wouldn’t have to pay to travel so far, smart move, IMO. Maybe she wasn’t sick, hard to say. But, she would have no need to lie about it. All she would have to do is say she needed time to get a different attorney and for him to file an appearance on her behalf.
What I do find suspicious is that Joe Jordon was clear and sure of what he was saying in his earliest communication to LE then suddenly changed his story when he realized what he said would help the defense. That is the only logical conclusion than I can come to, motive being not wanting to help Casey Anthony, regardless of what the truth is. That is really sad. I hope he either changes his attitude or is never allowed to search for a missing person again.
Mason says their expert doesn’t agree that there were coffin flies in the trunk. http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25843813/detail.html Now according to Haskell, he couldn’t identify exactly which species bug he had the larva and pupa of. There were no adults collected. But Vincent said they had sealed the trash and could look there to see if there were any adults after all that time. Magically there were plenty of matured adults so they were sent to another expert for identification who said they were, in fact, coffin flies. So, this tells me a couple of things. The maggots hadn’t been there long enough to mature into adults. The chain of custody and handeling of the trunk trash is super important. If I recall correctly, when the defense team went to the garage they couldn’t gain access to the bag, only the trash contents. So, the bag must have been sealed up somewhere separately. Now, if coffin flies can burrow into just about any place, could they burrow into their sealed nasty garbage bag? If that’s what happened, then what species of maggots were there to begin with? Or is the defense expert saying the state’s expert misidentified the adult he was sent? Should be interesting. If their expert has a report they plan to use we should see it at some point.
That chain of custody is interesting. Many times Vincent checked out the evidence from the locker. The items from the trash bag were checked for finger prints after a year. When on the stand, and I don’t remember if it was Vincent or the other one, he said that he threw away his bench notes. Also, Dr Vass was sending emails to Vincent and I am pretty sure it was Vincent that asked him what do I do with this dangling hose on the odor capture device. Does anyone remember the name of the other csi in the garage?
LMAO…not that smart..I was reading the Orlando sentinel article about the DNA testing.
I read the comments and seen yours. Then I read Lawzilla LOL Okaaaaaaaaaay? Maybe
it RK LOL tooooo funny!
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2010/11/casey-anthony-jose-baez-wins-one-on-dna-tests.html
I must say that on os blog I am not myself at all. I wish and yern to discuss the docs and evidence in a kind manner. I wish I had the toolset to take the high road over there. Hope folks can understand that I am hated over there. Still no excuse for me to not take the high road. I am often ashamed of myself over there. Here it is easy, people are kind and it is very much respected by me. Sorry you had to see that.
Oh…You have my respect here!!!! Very much so!!!! You fit in here big time. You have a lot of knowledge of the case..and bring up some great points and facts! I enjoy all your posts! That is what sent me searching and I came up with that article by chance. I di not even see your post at first as Lawzilla’s stood out!!! I was thinking what a jerk..and had to laugh as
they were saying ok? so often , reminded me of Kronk. Then I seen your post. Which was Great!I had to make fun of that lawzilla person!!! And wondered if it was Kronk LOL
I would never be ashamed to speak my opinion..but..Please know I may have blogged one or two
times elsewhere..Only because it is so disgusting..People are SOOOO rude..obnoxious..in the box thinkers..and say some really ridiculous things!Not to mention determined guilt long before any evidence was even released…
I am quite sure lawzilla as being imposter! I thought your post was great! I’m sorry
that I posted it. If you want Jb can take out. I was just going to post lawzillas blog
because of the ok’s.But I don’t see any reason for you to be ashamed at all!!!! I’m not
sure why you would be sorry for me to see it..It was a good post!
Thanks Snoop. Naw, I don’t want any post removed. lol
I actually took note of the ok? in that post..and some of what they were saying..and realized maybe someone had posted on there that was not the typical Casey or Dufense mindset.
Then I seen your post..and went back and read theirs. LOL
Oh LOL..I briefly read..Now I went back and read all LOL
Well good morning to all,
NTS, Snoop, hello.
ewww…I went to that site. I’m horrified! Don’t feel bad NTS, at one time, I commented on a site similiar to os. It was quite a task trying to make a point. I tried being polite. After 70 or 80 times of trying to no avail, I’d get a little snippy too. It’s frustrating, especially when you’re being gang bashed.
I’m sure they had nothing to say about Juan G. at Sawgrass. I’m sure they had nothing to say about the unknown DNA and that’s BIG stuff, IMO. The technical findings that we’ve discussed here would be impossible for them to even consider…no doubt or understand.
There’s some of us who want solid proof before we decide guilt or innocence. Others just like to simplify this case and take it as face value. When there’s so much going on in the background, I find that hard to do.
NTS, you have to consider this too. Most of the people following this case are newbies. They’ve never read a true crime novel or followed any murder. Every book I’ve ever read besides what I had to in school was ALWAYS true crime. So this was a Dream Come True Case for me because like a book, I’m getting all the facts, family dynamics and court proceedings to go along with it. To me, it’s like one big Book Club..lol Everybody in blogdom belongs to the club and we’re all friends discussing a book and this is a really good book. But that’s in a perfect world. I’ve come to realize that some folks on the “lets kill Casey” campaign have serious anger issues and can not be reasoned with.
I try to keep this in mind but I’m human too. I just say what you have to say and try NOT to let anyone get the best of me but I don’t always succeed either. No worries here.
Even when we disagree, we do it with decorum. Thats all that I ask.
Just looked at some of the comments on “THAT” SITE … really outrageous folks there ….but …. actually, not that much different from TCD and a few others….. It’s so much better here … again, JB — THANK YOU ….
NotThatSmart, I have run across your comments on several sites and have always been impressed that you are respectful, even in the midst of extremely disrespectful, bashing and bullying. This is the first time I”ve ever seen you even get close to spewing a reactionary type of comment. A person can only be pushed so far. I see that someone is disrespecting your person-hood and privacy, posting your personal info. I have sent a complaint to the Sentinel. They shouldn’t allow that sort of thing. I recognize a name or two there as a variation of the name they use elsewhere and they are always like that, rude and disrespectful. I’ve noticed that some use personal attacks on others as a substitute for relevant, thought out content related to the facts in this case. That says all that needs to be said about them.
I hadn’t thought about the fact that there were no adults present originally, before yesterday. The only way I think that is possible is if they hadn’t had enough time to mature. The adults lay their eggs and leave. The maggots move to a dryer area to pupate. They found both of these stages but no adults until they looked much later. The trunk probably provided pretty close to ideal conditions, hot and moist with a food source. Under ideal conditions it only takes 14 days to complete the life cycle. Under less than ideal it takes up to 37 days. While there was a receipt dated May of 08 in the trash there was nothing else to show when the trash was put in the trunk. LE didn’t even ask Tony if he new when that trash was taken out, did they? But we know it was likely put in there before June 27 and was retrieved on July 16, enough time to grow up if it wasn’t too hot to slow down the process. Still no adults. I have to assume that the trash was likely put in the trunk June 27 or shortly before, not much earlier. If these little critters hadn’t been in the general area to be attracted to the smell yet, the 3 days it sat next to the Amscott dumpster would provide both the time needed to get ripe and attractive, plus another source that could have insects maturing into adults looking for a new place to lay eggs, the dumpster. Although this is a banking business, they employees would most likely eat there and put their trash in the dumpster. Most only get dumped once a week and never get washed out so always have good stuff to attract various insects. I’m sure there was even a mom or two that changed their baby’s diaper in the lot and threw it in the dumpster rather than take it along with them on the road. They don’t make very pleasant air fresheners in hot cars.
While it isn’t that important, I see the first mistake on page 3 of the entomological report. The trash was removed from the trunk on July 15, not July 16 as he states and it was actually last removed from the tow yard dumpster, not the trunk. The latter fact could be important if there were any species or other evidence found that could have been introduced from that dumpster. That’s called contamination. Page 4, hand numbered 10456 lists a “2nd species uneclosed”. Note that this means of the same family, same genus or genera, different species. The coffin fly belongs to the order; family; Phoridae, genus; Megaselia, species; scalaris. A 2nd species of this genera was found. There are approximately 350 species within 48 genera in North America.
Now, Haskel said there weren’t originally any adult Phoridae found and on page 2 he lists item 6a as puparia from the paper towels but then on page 5 he lists 6a as including an adult without the abdomen. So what’s with this discrepancy? This is where he also lists a leg found belonging to a blow fly. Page 7 is where he says that there was decomp fluid found in the carpet, which doesn’t appear to be the case. It’s only his assumption based on the air test I’m sure he was told about. Now, is that a scientific way to approach an inspection, with preconceived ideas? I’m sure he gets paid a whole lot more than I do but I’d surely question that. On page 7, (10459) he said there were larva, puparia and adults recovered from the trunk but as far as I can tell, there were no adults recovered there, either initially or later when Vincent checked. Vincent claims he saw adults though. It would be important to determine the oldest insect age in order to accurately assess PMI. If one adult can lay many eggs each day for a number of days, all ages would be present, if an adult was found. How can they determine how many generations? I read that maggots feeding on someone who took cocaine become super maggots. They can find out a lot from the bugs but we haven’t seen any kind of tox report on the bugs.
I thought it might be interesting to work backwards from the time the trash and maggots were taken into evidence to see if his time line might show a different possibility. On pg 7 he says that it takes 35-40 ADD (accumulated degree days) for the body to purge and be attractive to the coffin fly. Looking at the DD column, starting at July 16, adding backwards until that many ADD are reached, I come up with July 13 adding to 51.7 ADD, more than enough time for purging and the 24 hours for the eggs to hatch. But, we want to go back far enough to account for all stages of the fly to develop. That would bring us to July 2 being 14 days earlier for the first female’s last eggs deposited to have become full grown.
This little lady can lay 1-100 eggs a day and 750 eggs in her lifetime. There was no count of the maggots given but one adult female could have mothered all those maggots, accounting for all the stages found. One site says the female phorid fly lays about 20 eggs at a time and will lay about 40 – 100 eggs over a 12 our period. So, lets give her a week of egg laying, that would put her arrival at about June 25. Kitchen garbage can easily have reached the stage that would be attractive to these little critters by the time it was taken out of the kitchen. But, if they are going to insist that they were only there for Caylee, where are they saying she was from June 16 forward but yet never leaked any fluids on to the carpet that they could detect. Having gases in the air should lead to matching residue in the carpet fibers, wouldn’t you think? Of if the gases form a residue on the trunk lid, even if there was no leakage on the floor, I would think that swabs could be taken and would prove the chemical compounds match human decomposition. There has to be a source that the gases come from. They shouldn’t need to rely on an unproven method that hasn’t been used in the court system. Perhaps the gasses came from the trash bag? Oh, and the pizza air test is just silly, IMO. If they were going to do it, at least splurge and buy a deluxe version that has sausage and other meats besides pepperoni on it. Geesh!
Amazing how thoughtful posters r here –and wild elsewhere!
Hi all, The reciept from fusion was May 24/08. The shoe cleaner belonged to Clint House.
He moved July 1. So there is the possibility that was his receipt as well. Probably cleaning
up..throwing things away..prior to moving. So thust the paper towel? Did house throw that away?..
Anyway, my mother has a dumpster like Tony’s quite far from her home. I always put
it in my trunk and drop it off for her at the dumpster. Unfortunately, I can not tell you
how many times I have forgot to drop it.LOL..The worst time ever was when there was
kitty litter waste in a small grocery bag tied up. OH MY GOSH it took months literally
for me to get all the smell out! It had sat in the hot Fl sun for a few days. I could not
determine what that putrid smell was..Finally seen in the trunk. That was early on when
I began taking to the dumpster when they no longer had garbage pick up.Since that time
I have notably repeated that scene..forgetting to stop at the dumpster. EWWWWW
I am sure since TL dumpster was further away..that Casey or someone put in the
trunk and she forgot to stop. Or maybe ..didn’t TL switch cars with Casey 1 day?
I don’t recall anything in the garbage that personally identified Casey. TL said in
his interviews..that there were MANY people in his home that were friends of his roomates.
He said EVERY SINGLE DAY.So couldn’t anyone have thrown that paper towel out?
I mean, I do not think Casey abandoned the car..she was trying to get help from friends
to get gas. She probably did not want to tell TL she ran out of gas again! He had to get
back to school..so she said my dad will take care of. The bag and its contents IMO
were put there to drop off at the dumpster..and someone forgot near the time the car was left
at Amscott.
Also, how could that bag not be contaminated by the dumpster at the tow yard?
Did anything fall out? Simon B threw the bag over the fence. Did anything fall out..
perhaps pizza..or a items off a pizza….I mean they look in bag a little but didn’t get extensive! Then after GA left he went and put in dumpster. Now the next morning
when he went to look for after seeing the news..he climbed in and dug through and couldn’t
find. So he calls LE who says we picked it up. They contacted a driver who let them in to get. So it was dumped into dumpster about 1:55pm Simon says. And Le retrieved some
time before 6am the next day.
The bag was in a dumpster full of garbage. Simon said
they have a lot of garbage and rancid food in the cars that sit in there. The garbage picks
up on Mon. in the transcript it says it was Thur so he was freaking that garbage was picked up. Of course that is typo error? June 16 was a Wed..That would have been the morning.
He couldnt remember if garbage on Mon or Tue pick up..so when the bag was not there
he thought had been picked up and they had a lot of garbage since then. Well, by the way
he describes the mess of bags he went through..they had a lot of garbage already after a Mon. pickup! How could it not be contaminated? There are so many things that could have
happened..including something falling out..or something sitting on the bag that looked
like it belonged in there. So as part of crucial evidense…IDK
JMO
Not to mention bugs! The garbage that is thrown in the trash there ..is from cars that have
been sitting. Simon also rated the car a 7-out of 10 for the smell. He also said it did
not compare after 2 wks to a suicide car after 5 days that had to be moved out of impound area.
Zub, A little confused on the touch DNA that might be used in this trial. I was not aware that this technology was not an accepted practice in the US. There are several countries that have used it in trials but still being questioned. According to the link I am giving….the 1 st judge in the US (New York) was going to allow this technique Feb. 16, 2010. Now I am wondering if this will go through a Frye Hearing. I had just “assumed” this was being used in the courts because of the Ramsey case.
http://newyorkcriminallawyersblog.com/2010/02/ny-judges-first-to-allow-touch-dna.html
Snoop, from the looks of the trash contents, especially the black food trays, the maggots had licked the platter clean, leaving nothing for either Jack Sprat or his wife. So, if there originally was any pizza left in the box, they had eaten it, I’m sure. I agree that the dumpster was quite a ways away, according to TL, and she would have put it in the trunk and forgot to drop it off. You’re also right that he may have had her car the day she had his, the day she visted Chris S. So he could have put it in there too.
Damagdpets, I didn’t realize that either and wonder if they are correct. I did some searching and it looks like it was the same type of dna testing used in the Ramsey case to show that someone other than her parents touched her pants and in other cases. It doesn’t require as large a sample and they are concerned that magnifying it too much could lead to distortion so I would think the size of the sample or how much they had to amplify would be important. But they do an amplification in normal dna testing too. See here for other cases it was used in. http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Touch-DNA-helps-crack-1992-Bethel-murder-427622.php and http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2008-09-22-touchdna_N.htm
This article seems to be saying it has been used in courts but for the first time, it was challenged (by a defendant) and the Supreme court approved it, setting a president. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/02/11/2010-02-11_controversial_dna_test_gets_judges_nod.html
Hi, just getting ready to walk out of the door & decided to drop in…
Remember this?
http://thejbmission.wordpress.com/2010/09/27/touch-dna-a-touchy-subject-for-sao-ashton/
Forensic scientists Richard and Selma Eikelenboom first used their technology to exonerate an American, falsely accused murderer Timothy Masters.
that stupid jim bob..
Thanks for the reminder, JB. If nothing else, I think this trial will leave us all more scientifically educated, don’t you?
Snoop,
Like you, I’ve thought about the garbage found in Casey’s trunk and came to the same conclusion. She simply forgot to drop it off at the dumpster. No, she didn’t place it there to cover up the smell coming from her trunk as some ppl seem to think.
Kitty litter left in the trunk?? OMG, that must have been special? lol So I guess it’s true, no good deed goes unpunished.
Zuben,
So true.. I am a constant student of life you know.
I need to mention — years ago, whilst we were away for a few days, our deep freezer ( located in our basement) koncked out …. the minute we opened our door …the odor almost knocked us out!! Rotting meat and more to the point …POULTRY was RANCID ….. took weeks to get the oder of the decomposing FOOD out of the house … I feel like retching now thinking of it…. ANY ORGANIC PRODUCT … EVEN OLD FLOWERS ARE ODIFEROUSLY RANK!
IIRC I think Tony mentioned that it would depend on which way you were going and which drive you were going out of to decide if you were going to drop the trash off on your way out of the complex or on the way in. IMO
Zuben, Your comment was addressed to JB but I really agree that this trial has led to more scientific discussion in general than any other I have ever heard of. Thanks to people like you all here our interest does not lie stale with “pre-conceived” thoughts of
guilty just because a crime has been committed. In most all cases we pretty much rely on LE to satisfy our questions. Not this one!
I will just never understand why they never asked Kc about the smell if it was a smell you never forget. It is my opinion that the statements that Ga made were based on his emotion and he had put all trust into LE and no trust into his Daughter.. I still to this day think he has no clue what actually happened. IMO
NTS,
I haven’t read Casey interview in quite awhile. You’ve raised a good point though. I don’t recall LE asking Casey about the smell in the trunk either?? Why wouldn’t they?
Hi Hazaka,
I can relate to your story. Post-Katrina, we weren’t allowed back in the city until 6-weeks later. I can remember how overwhelming it was driving in to New Orleans and seeing the destruction for the first time. It brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it.
When I finally got to my home, it was horrible! Trying to clean up the debris? UGH There just wasn’t enough bleach..lol because the smell was soo bad. It didn’t take me long to figure out where to start. The fridge had to go. I duct taped the doors shut and rolled it out on a dolly. We eventually disposed of the food, cleaned it outside with a HOSE and rolled it to the curb.
The whole neighborhood smelled for months until they finally picked those nasty refrigerators up. I’m not sure if that’s the same as decomp but I think it’s pretty darn close.
New rule for us. Before we evacuate, we clean out the fridge, unplug it and tape the doors open.
Sorry, didn’t mean to go down memory lane.. Just wanted to share my story with you.
Comment, the chemistry of chloroform is one that has me fascinated. In fact, this inspired me to bump that thread here to add a comment when I’m done here.
JB, the death toll was high enough in your state that I would think the smell of death would have lingered even after people were let back in. Or were the officials fast enough at clean up to not have that happen? Still, if you had meats in your fridge, especially pork and the order was that ripe, shouldn’t the smell have remained even after removing the fridge, if what they are claiming about Casey’s trunk is true? You have a lot more fabrics and other pourous materials in your home to hold odors than a car trunk does.
After all this discussion re: the smell ….. why wasn’t it made “a big deal” of and why isn’t the prosecution focusing on it if it was so rank and lingering!
I agree Hazaka. They never asked her why her trunk smelled like that, not even her parents. Could it be that they assumed it was the trunk trash too? LE hot footed it to the tow yard dumpster to retrieve it. Have a great day. I must get some work done.
Hi Zuben,
Great comment on November 20, 2010 at 2:08 pm !!
I like the way you worked backwards by using the insect stages. As I understand your interpretation, the date would be July 2nd.
Interesting..very interesting.
Yes, the bodies were removed before we were allowed back. In my area, we were allowed back on October 17th, 6-weeks later. Katrina hit Aug 29th. From news reports, the stench in the city remained for months later. I’m sure the Super Dome and Convention Center were the worst.
I forgot to add, Yes, the stench lingered through out the house for at least a month. It seemed to permeated in the floor, walls and ceiling until the house was gutted.
Hazaka,
I don’t know why it wasn’t made a “big deal” either. I can see a line of questioning like this:
“ok Casey, you’re telling us to look for Caylee but first off, I need to tell you that your car trunk smells highly suspicious, like “human decomp”… How did it get that way? ”
The interview didn’t go that way, did it? This is why I question did LE REALLY think it was the smell of death or were they just suspecting it was. I tend to think they weren’t sure at all or they wouldn’t have bothered to look for a LIVE Caylee as they claimed.
Hi All…
As I expected, in the Chandra Levy case there was a conviction with no forensic evidence.
Their was DNA found on Chandra’s running suit but did not belong to the man convicted. He was convicted on second hand info from cell mates & modus operandi.
I admit the prosecutors put up a good case but it was all circumstantial with no evidence to link the convicted yet I didn’t see anyone running to his defense. This is justice? would it be the same if it were a “Lilly White” case? Look at the statistics….
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/22/dc.chandra.levy.trial/index.html?hpt=T1
Hi Damagdpets,
In Chandra Levy’s case, if you remember then-U.S. Rep. Gary Condit was the prime suspect so I think there’s a political factor that plays strongly in this case. I bet if you ask Chandra’s parents, they would agree.
So yes, I’m sure ANY witnesses that would point to someone else would suffice in her case, even jailhouse snitches which IMO are the most desperate and implausible for obvious reasons.
I’m sure if you search enough you’ll find quite a few people in prison who were convicted on nothing but circumstantial evidence even in misdemeanor cases. Falsely convicted is falsely convicted in any crime as I see it but most go unnoticed. It’s just my opinion, in the year 2010 with loads of technology, there’s no excuse for not having some kind of solid proof, don’t you think?
http://www.wesh.com/pdf/25878653/detail.html
Prosecutors File Motion In Anthony Case
Prosecutors in the case against Casey Anthony have filed a motion to learn more about defense funds.
In a motion to compel additional discovery, prosecutor Jeff Ashton asked for a variety of information about the defense team’s expert witnesses.
My question, why does Jeff Ashton want this information and since when does financial issues have anything to do with seeking justice?? I think this prosecutor is way off base and this is just a tactic to compel information from the Defense.
He wants them to “show their hand”.
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25843813/detail.html
Defense: No ‘Coffin Flies’ In Casey’s Trunk
Where’s the beef? Here it is.
Quote:
Haskell said in his report for the Anthony investigation that the presence of so-called coffin flies and a lack of other insects indicated that a body in the later stages of decomposition had been in Anthony’s trunk.
End of Quote.
My question, if in fact the prosecution claims that the body was place on Suburban Drive as early as June 18th (borrows shovel from neighbor Brian Burner) how does that fit in with the presence of so-called coffin flies that are found in later stages? Wouldn’t that mean Casey drove around with Caylee’s body for possibly 10 days? Casey wasn’t lying low. She was out and about around a lot of people so that doesn’t seem likely to me, AT ALL.
Cheney Mason says there weren’t any coffin flies either. Go figure…
The Defense’s own entomologist Dr. Tim Huntington was once a student of Dr. Neal Haskell. Student versus teacher? The Defense team will depose Haskell this Friday.
JB, I agree with you on the PA looking for the avenue of what the defense is looking towards.
two thirds of the money spent by the defense was sealed in camera by Judge Strickland. He must have been satisfied as to what the funds were used for.
I would also like to know about the money that was not accounted for but I could wait until after trial to see if there was an impropriety by the defense.
Dr. Neal Haskell & Dr. Tim Huntington’s testimony will be compelling in court. Both of there credentials appear to be impeccable although Dr. Haskell has about 40 years more experience and practical application. These types of testimony are hard on jurors if they become too complicated. The thing that will be hard is that both doctors will only be able to put Caylee’s remains…plus or minus..3-4 weeks, the way I understand it.
Currently Dr. Haskell’s expertise may lead to a new trial for a young man convicted of killing some boyscouts. The original conviction and sentencing was over turned by a vote of 3-0. The defense is waiting for a new trial in which Dr Haskell’s testimony will greatly effect the prosecution’s timeline of events.
I wanted to point this out because it seems the good doctor works for truth and justice.
Damagd,
Also…if you compare these cases to the case against Casey, the State DOES have means of finding solid evidence but what they’ve found so far isn’t much, IF any.
This is what I think may have happened.
Casey was desperate in the ides of June 2008. She had found a new very demanding BF, her mother caught her stealing from her grandmother’s acct. and she was told she’d have to leave the Ant’s home ASAP. She had a lot of thinking to do.
IIRC, when Casey was talking about her upcoming vacation to PR, she mentions 3-days where she will be MIA. I’m wondering if she had plans already made that Caylee would be with a babysitter. MAYBE..she saw this as an opportunity to try and straighten out her life.
Drop Caylee off for a few days with the babysitter AND so what, IF Caylee doesn’t come back by the planned date or she just doesn’t show up to pick up Caylee as planned. She’s got things to do.
As we know, Casey had NO survival skills like most good mothers that know how to provide food & shelter for our children. Believe me, as a woman (and I know I am not alone) we will do WHATEVER it takes to provide for our babies.
I believe it was Zuben who recently mentioned that KC was near the Orlando County Welfare Office, so maybe she was checking into Section 8 housing and food stamps??
I still think KC felt assured Caylee was safe in the beginning. She had left Caylee with this person before and there was never a problem but now there is a problem. She can’t contact this person.
When she begins searching for her, she realizes all the places this person had connections to were gone. She DOESN’T know the whereabouts of Caylee. Now what is she going to do. She doesn’t report this to Cindy for obvious reasons. She’s afraid to involve LE because she knows these people dabble in illegal drug smuggling (perhaps) so she goes on this search alone to no avail. No Caylee, her car is gone, she’s literally stuck at Tony’s, Cindy’s is demanding to see Caylee, etc..This is why I think Casey was actually happy to see Cindy at Tony’s door step. She knew it was time to face the fact that there was no more covering for anyone, she’d had messed up Big Time.
Now if the State wants to convict her on this crime of neglect and stupidity, they’ve got perfect proof but in no way do I think she murdered Caylee.
Once the State put the death penalty on the table, then they should be able to prove it.
Is this what Casey’s guilty of?? Being stupid?? I have no problem if she spends 15 years in prison for neglect and stupidity. An innocent beautiful child was possibly murdered, in any case found dead, from what we don’t know. The murder one charge doesn’t fit the crime, IMO.
Thanks Damagd for this information:
snipped:
Currently Dr. Haskell’s expertise may lead to a new trial for a young man convicted of killing some boyscouts. The original conviction and sentencing was over turned by a vote of 3-0. The defense is waiting for a new trial in which Dr Haskell’s testimony will greatly effect the prosecution’s timeline of events.
I wanted to point this out because it seems the good doctor works for truth and justice
—————
That’s good. No doubt, he’s a good guy but I’m still curious as to the State’s theory that Casey toted a dead body in her car for at least 10 days and how he’s going to prove it.
This should be interesting…
btw, I’m off to do errands, I’ll be back later..
Great Posts Jb!!
Hi all. Long day. D, from what I’ve read about that case, I have to wonder if there weren’t some closed eyes and strings pulled, I hope his attorney is doing his job. Another persons’ DNA? That should raise some eyebrows. I admit though, that I haven’t read much about that case.
JB, yes, July 2nd is what I came up with if there is no proof that more than one full generation of eggs were deposited. I would think he would have to show that there were two full, consecutive generations to go back further than a couple of weeks and I don’t think he did that. If on adult female can continue laying eggs for a certain number of days, then there would still be larva pupating when the first adults emerge from the first eggs laid. I didn’t see him address anything to show that it was 2nd generation as opposed to later developing first generation. By the way, I had my first grandchild the same year as my last son’s birth. But, the little lady skuttle, coffin fly only has about a week of child bearing time, if she lays about 100/day, 700 in her lifetime. She would live to see her first eggs half way though development, under ideal conditions. If her children matured and were laying eggs, they would have sealed those adults in when they took it into evidence and there would have been adults in the trunk for Vincent to find. Wouldn’t you think, if there was decomp to supply the gasses, at least one or two adults would have stuck around the trunk to lay their eggs there? But that doesn’t seem to be the case. There was decomp gas but no decomp, magically. I haven’t been able to find the max temp they consider ideal for fastest growth. If anyone else does, please share.
JB, some very good points. I keep wondering, what is it with the SAO that they are so nosey about what the defense is doing and what they have spent the money on that they origiinally had. If they have a solid case it shouldn’t bother them in the least what the defense is doing. They should mind their own business, which is making sure they have enough correct and solid evidence to back up their claims and accusations. If the defense satisfied the judge with their accounting, why are they demanding to know more? Are they trying to divert the defenses’ attention and time away from the work at hand, spending their valuable, perhaps unpaid time providing them with all their financial accounting, etc? Why don’t they get the rest of their own discovery out in less than one to two years time before they demand immediate discovery from the defense. Geesh, if it isn’t the JAC whining about money, its the SA implying they have done something wrong with what they had and demanding to asses the judges judgment. At least that’s the way I understand it. Isn’t that what they are doing? If they had done anything wrong with that money Strickland would have loved to bust Baez for it. But he apparently couldn’t. So what does the state hope to accomplish here? Perhaps get the public up in arms because they paid for someone’s dinner? Yes, that is included in what they are demanding with this motion. Who’s dinner have they paid for on tax payers dollar? At least if the defense paid for any meals, they did it with the money Casey managed to bring in selling tangible goods and really shouldn’t be any of their concern. Hey, JB, maybe they want to know who really paid for that meal at the Waffle House,
As far as the Chandra Levy case..
The man convicted had already been convicted of 2 other attacks on women in the same park and around the same time. The other 2 women also gave testimony as well. I am
quite sure they were pretty compelling witnesses.
He was to be released Sept. 2010.
However, in 2009 many years after the murder..he became prime suspect
rather than Rep. Condit. There was dna found in her panties in her home, and that
belonged to Condit. Was there politics involved?
The jail house snitches were 2. (snipped)
Armando Morales
Armando Morales was a fantastic witness, orange prison jumpsuit be damned. Morales, a jailhouse snitch and former cellmate of Guandique’s, told the jury that the defendant confessed to killing Levy when they were housed together at a Kentucky prison. Yes, the inmate’s story had problems. Most notably: another cellmate from the same prison, who said he never heard Guandique mention Levy’s name. The jury, however, apparently found Morales trustworthy enough.
Here is an article I came across ..The 5 reasons for conviction..You never know..Maybe somewhere down the road someone with Conviction will come along and appeal.
Maybe thinking
it is over.. someone may screw up and say something they shouldn’t. Maybe he did it..maybe he was just an easy mark..There is no real proof!It does certainly
make your head turn when these cases come up. That is why some the majority
finding KC guilty before proven..is SOOO scary! You just never know when you think
your world rocks..
http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-justice/2010/11/chandra-levy-verdict-five-reasons-why-ingmar-guandique-was-convicted-4812.html
NTS You say:
I will just never understand why they never asked Kc about the smell if it was a smell you never forget. It is my opinion that the statements that Ga made were based on his emotion and he had put all trust into LE and no trust into his Daughter.. I still to this day think he has no clue what actually happened.
Great point!..Why did they never ask about the smell..I know I just listened to KC
again a couple days ago..There were a couple of things I wanted to refresh in my
mind. There were no questions of the smell. They went off looking for Caylee with
Casey in hand. Maybe one of the first questions I would have..be it CA, GA, LA, or LE
would be WTH does your car smell like that????
Didn’t find the name of the other CSI at the garage with Vincent.
Exactly Zuben,
Where there’s smoke there’s fire and where there’s gasses there’s a source. Makes perfect sense to me. Here’s my attempt..tell me If I’m comprehending this right. Momma fly is making baby flies on the 24/7 laying as many as 700 eggs in her lifetime which is 7 days. I would think there would be numerous flies in different stages of development. How long does it take for a larvae to become a full fledged fly?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoridae
Here I found the average for all the species of coffin flies is 25 days (and as short as 10 days under ideal conditions) This is a broad span, IMO to try to pin point their exact age. I agree with you that the trunk of a car in Florida, in the middle of Summer would be ideal. With this in mind, I would think there would definitely be a few adult flies leaning more to the lesser degree of 10 days. Just a questamtion…
Seems like someone owes the State of Florida a meal. That Ashton guy sure is sharp, isn’t he. I think I’ll send him a letter.
And you know Zuben.. Maybe the State really does want to know who paid for lunch at the Wafflehouse. We know one thing, Knuckle didn’t.
But we haven’t heard from Huntington yet who may say these insects weren’t coffin flies at all.
Thanks Snoop,
Like you, I’m shocked by the multitudes of people who are ready to convict Casey without definite proof. It is scary. I guess I’m not as worldly as I thought. In any case, it’s okay with me not to be part of the masses.
I still believe when all is said and done, convicting her won’t be easy. Unless there’s just a lot of information we don’t know about.
We shall see…
Snoop, Agreed…there are too many $64K questions that should have been asked instead of the lecture on how many years that these officers had been doing their job. They had her at the Universal interview. After she confirmed that it was all lies…why didn’t they ask the questions again…one by one. We will never know if it would have made a difference. All that we know…is what we have from the evening before and that day. No one at that interview “Misconstrued” what she said. LE spent the previous 12 hours trying to verify any one thing that she said. I have said this over and over in many comments since the beginning…this case went sideways with me when LE chose the path they did in the interview process. LE had the opportunity in the first 24 hours to try and get information. In KC’s first phone call home after arrest was about LE pinning Caylee’s missing on her! It was definately not about more info that would help find her daughter.
The day that KC signed on with Baez, Caylee was put on the back burner. It became the woe as me tour. As far as asking the question about the smell….of all people I think George wanted to. In his police interview he said that when he smelled what he did, he was terrified that it might be Casey or Caylee. I really believe that he was afraid and after that KC was too defiant to answer any questions. Here we are today wanting to know why, why, why….it’s too hard to second guess what transpired in the beginning. I hope that all learned lessons on interviewing people.
If it were me…I hope I would have capacity to do what Mark Klass did. He did it all….answered all questions…took a lie detector test….bottom line was to expedite LE’s protocol so they would start in earnest looking for his daughter. He was exceptional.
Good morning. JB, the eggs take 24 hours to hatch, then they feed .for 8-16 days, after which they move to a drier spot to pupate. When it is warmer, a more ideal condition, they move faster and would eat faster so in the trunk may have had their fill in 8 days. They would then move to the top or sides of the bag, or maybe even outside of the bag where it is drier. They take another 5-20 days to pupate. If they developed at the fastest rate, and the trash was put in there the morning of the 27th, by the time the car was towed it would be reaching dinner bell hour for the scuttle flies. They had enough time to reach all stages but perhaps not quite enough time to hatch by July 16. Oh by the way, there was an abdomen found so perhaps that is why the defense expert is saying they weren’t coffin flies. I’ve read that specific species are very difficult to identify correctly.
This article http://wiki.benecke.com/images/4/43/FE_Special_Issue_Campobasso.pdf is saying it is unusual to find nothing but this species but it does happen when nothing else can gain access. Casey opening the trunk at Amscot would be their easy way in if they had been visiting the dumpster. Page 2 of this document says that they reared larva found and they emerged in 9-10 days. This was in October in Japan. Ok, here is partially what I’ve been looking for.
“This time interval was considered too short for a
complete life-cycle at body temperature of 22.8°C and
ambient temperature of 15°C. Some experimental
rearings demonstrated that M. scalaris develops from
egg to adult in 22 days at 22°C, in 14-16 days at 27°C
and in 11.1 days at 29°C, consistent with data recorded
by Greenberg and Wells in 1998 who provided growth
curves for the scuttle fly at different constant
temperatures [6].”
Converting Celsius to Fahrenheit we have:
22 days at 71.6° F
14-16 days at 80.6° F
11.1 days at 84.2° F
Damagdpets, reason number 5 listed for the cause of his conviction is his defense team, saying they filed good pretrial motions but fell flat when it came to defending him during trial. Sad. I think the first thing I would question, if he is guilty of the other two attacks and hadn’t killed his victims, why was this woman dead? Criminals usually stick to their normal MO until something happens to change it. Notice that this article also points out that the only time this would be the only species found is if the food source was enclosed quickly in such a way that would block entrance for other species, such as the blow fly. Also notice that this is the only species found in the trunk trash bag, other than a blowfly leg which could have gotten there in the kitchen. Then remember that there was blowfly and other species evidence with Caylee. How would it be possible that she had reached beyond the stage inviting to blowflies in the trunk but still attracted them and other species in the woods? I say it is not very likely and probably impossible.
I went back to the bug list found with the remains. The fist one listed is Hermetia illucens, the black soldier bug. Many sources say they visit remains about 20-30 days postmortem and take about 55 days to complete their metomorphosis, even in warm weather. This would date her PMI at about 90 days, give or take. That would put her death about September 11 if there is only one generation there. But Haskel is saying it would have to have been earlier. I don’t understand his math. But even more problematic for his assessment is this study that seems to contradict him saying this species only visits an old corpse. http://forensicentomology.tamu.edu/pdf/JFS2003391.pdf This study was done in Georgia, Sept. 21-Feb 21 so it would have been cooler. They observed this large fly first on day 6 and the first post feeding larva were present on day 54. I think this may put a damper on their timeline. That would put her there as late as, perhaps October 12 or 13, disputing what Haskell is saying. Now what is really ironic, is Haskell is listed as the 1st reference. But it is his procedure guide that is listed. They were also observed feeding on alligators in Alabama that had been dead between 4 and 14 days. He ends the article with this, “Knowing this information could prevent a serious mistake in estimating the time at which a corpse is colonized by this species…”
The next one he lists, Chrysomya rufifacies, the hairy maggot blowfly, is often the first in, arriving even 10 minutes post mortem. There is no way she was wrapped tightly and put out of their reach in 10 or 15 minutes. The fact that there were any of this species found, I think is evidence of that. Their eggs can hatch in 8 hours, but 26 hours if at 77°. They feed for 3-5 days and puparium stage lasts 7-12 days. The adult can live up to 6 weeks but wiki says 23-30 days. What I found most interesting about them is they will eat other maggots, even their own species, which happens when they deplete the food source. They can do this in a week or so. Now, I think it is reasonable one must consider the reason there weren’t a lot of blowflies found with Caylee is that they may have canalized themselves and the other early arrivers. But Haskel says the fact they found less than 100 means there were fewer that colonized than normally would occur so she must have been in a position that blocked their entrance. Well, if any got to her at all, wouldn’t that eliminate what he is saying? Their optimal max temperature is 95 degrees so I think that eliminates them living in the closed trunk, which would have reached way over 100. The temperature would bake their little bodies. Their mass creates a lot of heat too, but central ones move to the outside, all of them rotating positions in order to protect themselves. They wouldn’t be able to do that in the trunk. All areas would be too hot.
One other piece of common sense makes me ask, if there was no food left for any of these bugs, how long could they stick around before leaving to find food elsewhere. When a body is completely skeletonized why would any of these species be there that feed on flesh, once the flesh was gone, unless they had recently finished eating? There should have only been their pupa casings and maybe some dead adults if she had been put there in June, would’t you think?
Once again Zuben — your thoroughness amazes me! And, to change the subject a bit….. whatever happened to those sisters — twins no less at different ages … who “fingered” George for an affair? That kind of disappeared!
Thanks, Hazaka. I think the twins got double their allotted time in the Sun from K Belich and they rode off into the sunset. I really doubt we will hear anything about them at trial, unless, of course, it was her that brought the Henkle to the tent they had set up.
Zuben — bingo … yet — to read “reviews” of KB (about whom I have serious reservations about her journalistic abilties …. having spent over 32 in radio and TV, authored a news policies and procedures handbook, hire and fired onair personnel) — one would think she actually was competent!
that is 32 years …
She really authored a policy and procedure handbook? Did it include pushing into someone and then accusing them of pushing her, like she accused Andrea Lyon of? Did it include saying something like there exists a picture of a man in a compromising attire (naked), to get ratings, without ever seeing the picture? I don’t think there is another reporter I’ve heard stating falsities as fact more often than her, next to Nancy Grace. 32 years only means she has likely been doing it for that long and getting away with it. I can’t consider either of them real news reporters. It would be more accurate to use the phrase, “embelished news” or maybe Niction, news+fiction. Nixon oughta like that one, recalling Watergate days.
No Zuben —ME —————— want a copy!
Would say more — then I would “blow my cover”
OH, OH, OH!!! I must be tired. I completely misread that. Zuben humbly bows and asks forgiveness.
Sure, I’d love a copy but don’t blow your cover. Journalism sure has changed during this last generation, hasn’t it? I’m old enough to have grown up with Walter Cronkite. If there is one thing following this case has taught me, it is that I can no longer just blindly trust all news persons to report the truth.
Zuben, Out of fairness all news has become a game show with the prize being a book or a special with the network one is working for. Today reporters will embellish anything to get ratings. It’s not like the 60′s when the press knew Kennedy was seeing different women and kept it under wraps. Regardless of what is reported we still have basic facts that we can study through discovery with our own interpretation. Not that it means a lot because of all the expert testimony from both sides. In the end it will still come down to how both sides present their case to the jury. I am not an expert nor a juror but will accept the jury’s verdict at end of trial.
I don’t know Zuben, it this will come off right with you, but if the prosecution reads your interpretations they might just be working a little harder. I think you would have
been excellent on the defense team, as their investigator. Have you been asked to help? lol Ah yes, Walter Cronkite, one of the best, although I’m too young to know.
Wishing everyone a Happy Thanksgiving celebration.
Damagdpets, you are right but it isn’t right. I’ve also seen the history tεxt books rewritten during my lifetime. Facts aren’t negotiable or changeable. Opinion isn’t fact and should be left to the appropriate column or segment, not being the major content replacing real news. But, they aren’t all like that. I watch my local station for news and they simply report news, sometimes adding one or two sentences at the end of a story regarding their opinion. Any mistruths they report are given to them by officials or simply mistakes, for the most part. I think the main ones that embellish the truth or create shock value are the ones that aren’t happy with their position and want to reach “higher” which is really stooping lower. They aren’t happy with being as good as another good news broadcaster, they want to shine brighter. There should be no competition in the news field. It isn’t an audition with only one lead role.
Comment, I hope LE does read here so they know not ever juror will blindly follow them and isn’t participating in a popularity contest. I’m sure we represent at least one that will sit on that jury. Of course, they don’t even require a unanimous vote so one won’t be enough. I guess they don’t consider their decision so heavy, that all should agree. That really bothers me too. No, I haven’t been offered a job.
While I’d be flattered, I couldn’t accept a commitment to invest any more time than my spare time because I have to feed my babies, which isn’t that easy these days. But we have a turkey and ham thawing so will feel abundant, for sure.
Thanksgiving blessings to you all.
Hi all — wasn’t on last night … but all I can say to your comments re what “passes” for news/journalism of today is — I AM SOOOO GLAD I AM RETIRED … I would go nuts in what passes for on air drivel! If I don’t post again, I wish each and every one of you a peaceful and joyous Thanksgiving.
I found this article recently written by Andrea Lyon that thought was appropriate for this thread. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrea-lyon/witness-to-innocence_b_784894.html A man that sat on death row, finally exonerated a month before execution, is fighting for his right to sue the prosecution, who willfully withheld the evidence showing his innocence. He won the suit but they are appealing so the supreme court will decided if a wrongfully prosecuted and convicted “victim” has the right to compensation. He was awarded 14 million dollars in the original law suit.
ZubenElSchemali
——————
Thank you for that link …. a number of years ago I read a book about a number of person wrongfully convicted spending years on death row and/or actually executed due to prosecution withholding of evidence. I can’t recall the name of the book, but something about Texas rings a bell with me.
Since 1973 there have been 139 people exonerated with one Frank Lee Smith (died prior to exoneration). In 1993 Kirk Bloodsworth was the first to be exonerated by DNA evidence. These stats are for the US only.
The Innocence Project only works with cases that have DNA evidence. “These cases underscore a critical point: DNA testing alone cannot overturn most wrongful convictions. In fact, experts estimate that DNA testing is possible in just 5-10% of all criminal cases.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/non-dna-exonerations.php
I can’t say that 139 convictions over turned with 2 million people in our prison system is acceptable or not. What I can say is that not all were over turned because of DNA or evidence being with held. The reasons run the gamut.
Hazaka, the book you might have read was…The Innocent Man by John Grisham.
Happy Thanksgiving To ALL….!!!
Sorry I missed all prior to today. Happy Thanksgiving to All! I hope your day
was blessed! Unwinding from the day..And feeling VERY thankful after reading
the last couple hours about wrongful convictions, individual cases, statistics
and research.
Damagpets says:(Snipped)
I cant say that 139 convictions over turned with 2 million people in our
prison system is acceptable or not.
What I can say is that not all were overturned because of DNA or evidence being
with held. The reasons run the gamut.
(snipped from link)
We often have to close cases because the biological evidence is missing or destroyed, making DNA testing impossible. In some of those cases, strong evidence of innocence is discovered during the search for biological evidence, and we are able to secure our clients’ freedom without DNA testing. In other cases, DNA test results alone are not enough to free our clients, but can help exonerate people when coupled with other evidence of innocence. In all of these cases, new evidence of innocence resulted in our clients’ convictions being vacated and indictments against them being dismissed, fully exonerating them.
I returned to some older blogs in July Aug.. to recall some of our posts about DP…..
http://thejbmission.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/another-one-bites-the-dust/#comments
http://thejbmission.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/hail-to-judge-perry-and-the-innocence-project/
Then I kind of wondered from there. How ultimately sad! One wrongful conviction
is Too Many in my book! I would have to honestly say, other than DNA, the main
reason for overturning was with held evidence. Some from SAO, but much from
LE. Third would be witnesses, not excluding expert witnesses.
In reading some of these cases, a few had a very short life beyond being released.
A car accident, illnesses, drug or alcohol abuse leading to death, as they just could
not get past it etc.
These were INNOCENT people not MISTAKENLY convicted..but PURPOSELY, KNOWINGLY,
WRONGLY CONVICTED!!! The evidence to prove their innocence being held from the
defense..Expert witness testifying to untruths…
This woman as of today’s news is suing NY 30 million
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/erie/Woman-sues-for-spending-14-yrs-in-jail
Sally Clark UN
Professor Sir Samuel Roy Meadow (born 1933) is a British paediatrician who rose to initial fame for his 1977 academic paper on the now controversial Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP) and his crusade against parents who wilfully harm or kill their children. He was knighted for these works.
He appeared as an expert witness for the prosecution in several trials, in at least one of which his testimony played a crucial part in a wrongful conviction for murder. The General Medical Council (GMC) struck off Meadow after he was found to have offered “erroneous” and “misleading” evidence in the Sally Clark case. Clark was a lawyer wrongly convicted in 1999 of the murder of her two baby sons, largely on the basis of Meadow’s evidence; her conviction was quashed in 2003 after she had spent three years in jail.Sally Clark never recovered from the experience, developed number of serious psychiatric problems including serious alcohol dependency and died in 2007 from alcohol poisoning.
In England a unanimous verdict is not required for a person to be convicted of murder, and on November 9th, after deliberating for two days, the jury voted by a 10-2 majority for her conviction
For three years the prosecution had maintained that there was “not any evidence of infection or any possible natural explanation” of Harry’s death. [19] The newly discovered report established the prosecution knew that wasn’t true and had deliberately misled Sally Clark’s lawyers..
In other words, the prosecution’s pathologist manufactured his claim that Harry was shaken to death out of thin air, and the prosecutor’s then used that fabrication to justify filing murder charges against Sally Clark.
So in this case..you have renowned expert witness and prosecuters, pathologist etc.
http://forejustice.org/wc/sally_clark_freed.htm
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Kenny_Waters.php
Again with held information 18 yrs in prison..paid for confessions
of witness. He told his sister he would not make it in prison. She made
him a promise to go to law school and get him free..if he would promise
to hang in there. She did..it took her 18 yrs to get him free, but she did.
6mo later he died in auto accident.
Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, 1,047 convicted murderers have been executed in the United States. (As of October 1, 2006)
Of those executed, 11 were female. (The last was Frances Elaine Newton in Texas on September 14, 2005).
Of those executed, 22 were under the age of 18 at the time of the murder. (The last was Scott Allen Hain in Oklahoma on April 3, 2003).
Of those executed, 603 (58%) were white and 362 (35%) were black.
Of those executed: 878 (84%) were executed by lethal injection, including 392 of the last 396 executions.
153 were executed by electric chair (The last was Brandon Hedrick in Virginia on July 20, 2006).
11 were executed by gas chamber (The last was Walter LeGrand in Arizona on March 3, 1999).
3 were executed by hanging (The last was Billy Bailey in Delaware on January 25, 1996).
2 were executed by firing squad (The last was John Albert Taylor in Utah on January 27, 1996).
How many were innocent? How many were actually 60IQ officially retarded..How many did not
have a voice..anyone to help…How many forced signed confessions. Confessions
interrogations not recorded by LE and FBI?
The Florida Department of Corrections publishes a list of executions online, with names of convicts, ages, dates of execution, and counties, as well as a list of death row prisoners. Florida has one of the highest rates of death row convictions, as well as one of the highest rates of exonerations of wrongful convictions in the nation.
Only two women have been put to death in Florida since 1924. Both, Judy Buenoano and Aileen Wuornos, were despicable serial killers.
Unfortunately those with enough integrity to come forward and admit a mistake maybe strongly encouraged not to do that, even by their superiors. Sweep it all under the rug. No use upsetting everybody about bringing it up again.
They will defend their wrong decisions it to ridiculous lengths while the victim of misinformation is away from their family, behind bars or under the glare of the hateful stares from people who get their information from Nancy Grace or some other tabloid. Some of these cases won’t be resolved until those who were in charge are long gone or in some fortunate cases — officers who once worked on the cases and never forgot that something didn’t seem right and comes back to solve it. May will never be resolved. The truth will never come out.
Since this is a situation any of us could face, why are we so apathetic about it? Why are we so quick to believe they have correct person? How have so many people been convicted on virtually no evicence? We are outraged over the treatment of crime victims yet we distance ourselves from the accused, even the cleared accused. They are victims and so are their loved ones.
For as often as this happens (that we find out about) the masses seem alarmingly comfortable with the chance of being ruined personally, professionally and legally based on gossip that got out of hand or a mistake nobody could bother correcting. It doesn’t even have to be a “legal crime” any frivolous assualt on one’s character based on gossip or personal hunches is wrong.
http://surftofind.com/redcarpet
THERE IS SOOO MUCH MORE! As I have stated in prior post..I personally
do not believe in DP. However, regardless of my opinion..I don’t see justification
for DP to be in one state vs another..Same crime you do time.
This case DOES NOT warrant DP!
The DNA whether provable or not..presented accurately or not..I feel deeply that
there are some things being with held. JMO..I don’t know if it is LE or LE and SAO.
You would think that being before Perry that wouldn’t happen. But remember he
was not the judge from the start. I do not feel the time frame is accurate..I also
think someone knows..how and when that body got there..and IMO I don’t think it
is Casey.
Good morning Snoop,
Great comment! And I agree, there’s a huge problem in our country’s judicial process and I’m starting to realize that it may not be in the court system but more likely in LE. The SAO can only build a case on what’s provided by LE. If they provided lies, then the whole case is built on a “lie”. Lies lead to false testimony, manufactured evidence and more lies. This is why there’s so many innocent people in prison and WORST on DEATH ROW, imo.
Overzealous and arrogant cops will stop at nothing to get the bad guys and consequently are taking down some good guys in the process. It seems this is acceptable by the general public but it’s not to me. I’d rather see a few criminals go free than see one innocent person falsely imprisoned or sentenced to death.
Like I’ve posted before..it’s 2010, we should NEVER have to rely on just circumstantial evidence alone AGAIN.
Thank you for bringing up this subject. The whole nation should be aware of these statistics, not just us. Although I do believe in the DP for some despicable, PROVEN murder cases, I don’t think the CMA case is one of them.
And BTW, it’s not just Florida’s problem.
As I type this comment, here in N.O. there are at least 8 NOPD officers going to trial for murder and various other felonies. This stems from the lawless chaos we went thru post Katrina. Somewhat understandable but still hard to swallow especially when they tried to hide a victim by burning his body in a car. Ewww..not good.
Thanks again.
damagdpets
November 24, 2010 at 5:01 pm
———————————–
Thanks — hope you had a nice holiday — no — that wasn’t the book — John Grisham’s..( I did read that tho’) — this was quite a number of years ago …. maybe 15 or more….. I just can’t recall the author — but it was quite eye-opening!
Thank you Snoop!! Awesome commentary. One innocent inprisoned person is TOO many.
I just <3 <3 Barry Scheck!!! Founder of the Innocence Project. He's my hero.
OOPS, Sorry that your comment got stuck in moderation too. I'm happy to say we're on the same page.
JB
Snoop, thank you for the thoughtful and wise post. I don’t believe killing as a punishment for killing is right or effective either. But whether the person is falsely convicted of felony murder or a misdemeanor, it is a tragedy that should never happen. Yes, mistakes can happen but if they want justice and truth more than a good track record for arrests and convictions that probably would never happen. In my opinion, at least some of the convictions are simply to keep the rate of state paid jobs up in numbers and filled, while also bringin in income through fines. It also could be seen as a quick fix to high unemployment, etc because it opens up more jobs by lowering the number of free citizens competing for those jobs. Of course, crime increases during hard economic times too, such as now, but that is another subject. Yes, LE is ultimately responsible for any false convictions most of the time but the prosecutors have to take their fair share of responsibility too. Look at the way Ashton stood in court saying there was no discovery concerning latent prints. We saw one lone print he probably wasn’t aware slipped through and later saw some discovery regarding what Baez was referring too. I have to wonder if he didn’t plan on handing any of it over but when busted on it, gave them only what they wanted them to see. Why would he deny it unless there is something he doesn’t want them to know? Or should we believe, as many years as he’s been doing this, that he just overlooked and really didn’t know there was any latent print information? I don’t think so. The bottom line is, if he lied about there being any latent print that needed to be handed over in discovery, he had a reason. Now he and Burdick are demanding discovery from the defense, NOW, along with an accounting of any money paid to any of their experts, and with their notes, etc. He takes 2 years but demands through the court, what he hasn’t given himself. How much discovery is still missing? I won’t take the time to list everything I’ve noticed but beginning on a report dated July 15, where is the 1st responding officer’s report about going to TL’s to pick up the phone? Why would they leave that out?
Have a great day all.
Zuben,
All good points. We’re also forgetting about upcoming Elections?? I’m sure losing this case would be death to their political careeres.
Absolutely. Prisons are big business. Prisoners are busting out at the seams.
But instead of freeing the non-violent the Feds opt to build more prisons. More prisons, more jobs, better for the economy..yada, yada. But REALLY…at the price of freedom.
Maybe in the next generation and Prop 19 is passed, perhaps??
Zub, I think you’re right about the fingerprint that accidently slipped through.
Have a great day too.
I find real problems with the system. It does not have to be a criminal act to feel the
flaws in the system. How often does someone become unjustly accused of wrong doing,
and experience and accept that as no way around it? Some of you recall my post about my accident and disputing a ticket in court. I had all my photos and defense materials etc.
Having a flat that morning rushing to court I had left them behind. Unfortunately, I failed my self not having them. Would the outcome have been different?
He waited, until I stated yes to the judge out of 3 options..I wanted the hearing…and then
motioned for the other driver and mother to meet him outside to confer. I went and checked what they were doing and overheard the conversation..As I approached the officer stood upright and put a paper behind his back.
In front of the judge now,The officer says he wants to change the statue..without explaining anything about that to me..the hearing continues…he contradicted his report and outright LIED…said it was a bright sun shiny day(throwing his arms in the air) although it was raining. He said the pavement was dry..the skid marks were 10 ft..
I have photos and measurements of 80 ft. plus another 20 ft after the motorcycle was on the ground and 20 more ft beyond that till it stopped…
Why would he do that? What was in it for him? The guy on the motorcycle being injured
stated just what the officer told him..while conferring outside the courtroom, Secretively. I don’t know..Can’t remember..
Now he has the opportunity to have the limits of my Insurance policy, as motorcycles
are exempt of insurance in Fl and it is no fault. I don’t have problems with that..except I do not think someone driving a motorcycle or any other motor vehicle on the road should be exempt. I do have a problem if he he decides to sue me..and just had clearance..because
an officer stood in the court room took an oath under GOD and LIED.
But the cop lied!!!!! And the judge said ok. Doubled the fine..and added a driving school.
Why should I have been penalized with a different fine etc. because I chose to defend
myself by fighting a ticket? Well 30 days to appeal..I decide to again appeal..(I’m just
so p***** that I am absolutely..positively..sure..I yielded the right of way) I go to appeal and
they want 300.00 non refundable. But I talk with someone and they tell me I can ask
for a re hearing. Based on what I told the clerks office about the officer beckoning him out of the court room to confer..and his untruths..she suggested it..it is free..and no time limit. Now, it
is hard to say the success rate of the judge re hearing the case.
Why would I go to such lengths ..should I have left it alone and paid the original fine?
Because I believe in truth and justice. When I swore under oath..I told the truth. He did
not. Many years ago..when I was young..Many LOL..I was faced with a situation similar..
only no accident. However, this was a charge which required a court appearance.
Again…there were false accusations. I hired an attorney and actually went for a jury
trial. During the trial..my place of employment was brought in the picture as a character assassination …which had absolutely no bearing on anything??!!! I won.
IMO our justice system is horribly flawed! I believe in freedom and justice for all.
And so should all of America! My hearts desire was to be an attorney. However, my life took me in a different direction. But I strongly believe..that out of frustration, costs, feeling as
though we have no options but to accept..that we continue to allow injustice in the court
rooms.
But since we are all of different character..not everyone feels the importance…THAT IS..
AS LONG AS I AM NOT BEING DIRECTLY EFFECTED. Unfortunately, because we have a
tendancy to accept that we can not change our justice system..our government..we continue to lose our rights. Damn…what I seen happen that day..the officers actions..and lies..is really no difference…except that it is at the bottom of the scale of justice. I just
can’t imagine having my life in the hands of the judicial system..where at the very least
mistakes are made…but at a grander level…purposefully with holding evidence!!!! We can
expect mistakes..we are not perfect, or live in a perfect world. But…to knowingly hide
information that could effect that persons life..or life and death??? What kind of person
or persons does it take to do that? Isn’t that a little like premeditated murder?
Jb , sorry about your Thanksgiving dinner LOL..I made a pecan pie with a frozen
pie crust. As we cut into it the pie filling and the crust were separated by the
paper I forgot to remove LOL
Your post on Nov.22 4:55 …That is a VERY plausible theory! I think I must’ve missed
that post. Now if you could just figure out the rest LOL
Snoop, thanks for sharing. I’m afraid your story is all too common. Also, I think there are at least some judges that don’t respect our right to represent our self. I petitioned the court once, taking my attorney’s guidance and representing myself because I’d already invested too much into a divorce. The judge’s first words were, “I see you’re representing yourself…I suppose you can do that.” She then proceeded to ignore the petition before her, and instead addressed the counter petition submitted by the other side. She didn’t even bother to deny my petition, she simply ignored it. I lost the battle but one the war, ultimately but really we were all losers, our children most of all. I can only assume that her attitude came from being an attorney and resenting my standing in the shoes that should have been filled by a paid licensed attorney. We may have that legal right but that doesn’t mean our right is respected or honored.
I was thinking about all those falsely imprisoned that don’t have anyone to care enough to fight for them and they don’t have the knowledge or resources necessary to clear themselves. So many feel they just can’t fight the system and don’t even try. So many aren’t as fortunate as Casey A, only having a court appointed attorney that may or may not have the desire or time to give it his/her all. But, seeing Lyon and now Baden leave because the state won’t pay their travel even though they aren’t paying any attorney fees…Yes, she quite quite a chunk of money from those pictures. But, given the amount of discovery, the amount of time, etc, what would a death penalty case cost the state if her attorney’s were court appointed? Is the amount they’ve received way above what it would have cost at the JAC approved rate? Or do they limit the number of hours that can be spent to save the life of their client? What has the state spent for the prosecution so far? No one seems to care enough to ask but there is constant bitching about what the defense is spending. Maybe I’d think differently if I saw the figures for both sides and what it would be if she had a court appointed defense team. One thing I’m sure of though, they aren’t giving their time away because they know she is guilty. And, if they are doing it for publicity, that is the most expensive advertising I’ve ever heard of, clearly not a wise business decision. I don’t think they are that stupid.
Zuben said:
quote:
One thing I’m sure of though, they aren’t giving their time away because they know she is guilty. And, if they are doing it for publicity, that is the most expensive advertising I’ve ever heard of, clearly not a wise business decision. I don’t think they are that stupid.
—————-
No they (the attorneys) are not stupid Zuben. Nothing comes cheap in this world and we all know the age old adage “you get what you pay for” I think this is what annoys people most about the Anthony case is that she has private counsel. We all know if she had a court appointed attorney, this case would be over and done with but because she found a way to actually pay for a defense, she’s able to fight for her life and for that she’s maligned by thousands.
Whether you like her or not she’s a U.S. citizen who is exercising her right to a fair trial.
Speaking of a fair trial, the Defense has filed another motion addressing the media, internet bloggers and pseudo-journalist/investigators. I think it’s fair to say, there’s an interfering blogger amongst us who she’s particularly addressing.
http://www.wesh.com/pdf/25912035/detail.html
Actually JB —- I suspect there are a number of inteferring bloggers who are promulaging wild speculation! NOT here, of course … good, thoughtful comments here!
I don’t think that Andrea Lyon ever expected to get paid but she had some support coming from other sources. Many think Baden did it for the publicity to help her book but she is well known enough to not need that so I don’t think she expected to get paid either. The same has to be true for Mason. But, Baez certainly couldn’t afford to put this kind of time in without getting some kind of return. He has bills to pay, after all and doesn’t already have a next egg or something else to fall back on for survival. Yes, it usually is true that you get what you pay for but there are some people in the world that give more than they get. I am one of those people. I would give myself away for a good cause as long as I could still meet the needs of my family. Heck, I still do, even when I should be making money, if it is a worthy cause. I have learned though, not to give where it is not deserved or where the person can do for themselves, or pay. While Ms Anthony has been ridiculed and condemned for selling all that she had to sell, she did what she could for herself so she is deserving of any pro bono work that comes her way through generous hearts that want justice. I’m a little disappointed that people have left the team because I know they are more abundant and able to afford this charitable effort than the average person, much more abundant than I and could continue if they really wanted to bad enough. Maybe they’d have to give up a vacation but it would come back to them multiplied. Blessings we give always do, in one form or another.
Hazaka, I’ve been watching on where several TES searchers post and there is encouraging and bragging about hanging up on them when they called. There seems to be an effort to organize a complaint campaign to the judge, claiming they are breaking his rules about who they can call and saying they are misrepresenting themselves by saying they are calling from the court house. I don’t see how that is a misrepresentation but, that is the mindset of most. How is that fair or how will that serve justice if people refuse to answer if they searched there or not. And then they complain because of what the PI is getting paid at tax payer’s expense. It takes time to redial and they have to find out who all was there. I see that someone is claiming that Buchannan changed her story during the deposition. I hope we get to read it but doubt we will since both parties were present. They only way we would is if they need a transcript for comparison to her first statement or testimony at trial, I believe.
It sounds like Laura B and Brandon S have both adjusted their stories and no longer a help to the defense. I thought it would come down to this when they both stalled. I am curious as to why LB was put on a pedestal when she is no different than JJ.
If there are any more TES people that need to be talked to….they can be subpoenaed just like Sparks and Buchanan. I just don’t believe they exist after this much time. This case from the beginning was filled with people that don’t exist.
Hope Everyone Had a Great Holiday!
So, Damagdpets, who do you suppose Wesh’s source is, that is in on or hearing the depositions? Surely not a member of the defense team. If both people changed their story, why? I’m sure Baez and the rest have better things to do that waste their time on depositions they had no reason to believe would be helpful in gathering needed information.
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/25926650/detail.html
“Jordan later told detectives that was not his claim, and a source with knowledge of Buchanan’s recent sworn deposition said her statement has changed as well…The source told WESH 2 News that a recent deposition of meter reader Roy Kronk’s son, Brandon Sparks, was not helpful to defense efforts to paint Kronk as a potential suspect. Kronk discovered the remains in December 2008.”
I had a great holiday. I trust you did to, D.
After LB changing her story..I went searching a little. I found some old posts from Nov 2008
of searchers. I don’t recall if I had read any prior back then or not, but I found a couple
interesting in regards to the procedures..organization..paperwork etc.Also one mentions
searching in the woods behind Anthony’s and near the school. These are not recent posts.
They are posts from 11/2008.
http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2008/11/the-stories-beh.html#comments
So I then decided to refresh myself with TM interview when LE went to TX specifically to
get original copies of JJ and LB ..Anyway 11 pages..
I found some contradictions in there..but basically..Le inferred even then that someone could take paperwork home..or take blank paperwork and forge. I am sure LB has recieved
some pressure!
Also in the link above..One of the posters is quite detailed about from the time they arrived
til they left..They were told to walk around and get some people together for a team. No packets as they were suppose to get..So they told them just to write on a peice of paper.
black and white printer for maps that did not work etc..interesting..compared to how
it has been made to look as though all was documented etc.
Well that then led me back to Kronk again. So I listened to the 911 calls again.
Then to Cains interviews…Then Kethlin Cutcher interviews..
Cain nor Cutcher say there was any conversation in regards to RK about wasting time.
I see no where that either deputy gave him any reason to get pissed off? In fact after Cain said nothing but garbage..he and Cutcher also walked across the street to look around..while they were in the area. I listened to
the audios of all. Cutcher was the other deputy that arrived there as well. She said
RK just kept saying she said she was close by. She said he told her that about 5 times.
Other than that no conversation. He told Cain there was a bag that he believed contained bones. Both deputies say there was a lot of bags and trash back there..That being..why would Kronk think the bag was suspicious and had bones in it? Neither one smelled anything. Cutcher said RK was not upset about anything but seemed sad that there was
nothing there. Did Cain lie? Or was he pressured in those couple hours that they gave him time to think they said.
Also they make a big deal about him saying his supervisor told him to call the crime line or tip line.
Well as the dispatcher told Kronk that is where all the information was being compiled.
He is confused whether he called and spoke to someone,,and then says he thinks it was
a recording..then he thinks he emails a link. They also give him a hard time about didn’t
you think to tell someone after the remains were found. Well, he thinks all is tied together.
They don’t understand and make him look stupid. Well I would assume he followed directions that it was cleared.. to send the information or leave msg for recording. Then since it is all compiled
there and somehow LE is suppose to have all the information that they have.
At least that
is what I assumed. And when I listened to that part I recalled all the problems getting my tip
through. I called all the numbers that were listed..and there were recordings I recall..And also an email for the tip line as well as to the sheriff office I believe. I also did the same
thing as he did! I would assume ocso got the tip. There was no live person for the tip line.
As JB said..hey when TM was searching why didn’t Kronk take advantage that someone
was there..maybe listen to him. He was there in Sept and Nov. But he does not. In Aug
he says he wasn’t about to walk in a swamp to the bag..But he had no problem in Dec?
Nothing about it makes any sense. Nothing! Its a grey bag..its white..its????? I really feel
there is nothing Right about any of it. And IMO something is REALLY wrong with RK and his
discovery.
That may be confusing..I was talking about Cain being told by supervisor to give the information to the tip line..
Hi “soop”..lol
I think that’s you?? I think there’s something really strange about the whole ordeal too.
I remember reading that when it was first reported that Caylee’s body was found they said his name was “German Gonzalez”. How’s that for strange? You can find comments about this on WS.
Cain was the scapegoat. There’s no way a cop wouldn’t have jumped on the opportunity to find Caylee. He would have been a hero. He and Kronk would have walked hand in hand taking pictures for the press.
Also I think the reason Kronk keeps saying “she said she was close” is to explain why he’s there. JMO
Hi JB, soop here LOL..Yes I remember about German Gonzalez. Yes Cain was a scapegoat. I agree NO Way he would not have jumped on the opportunity to be a hero. No way..anyone
would. If what RK seen was so outstandingly suspicious looking..why did the officer not
see it. Was there a bag of bones there? Had RK already looked in a bag..and knew it? But
the officer not finding anything but yard waste seen nothing. Thats why RK was upset
because he knew but the officer had cleared it..Now what does he do?
Maybe he was back there again before Dec. Maybe he was there when he found out the searchers were coming. But he really didn’t want them to find it did he? Then he would
not get the fame and the $$. But because officer Cain already said there was nothing there,
he was going to have to figure out something.
If there was a bag of bones there..RK and whoever put them there were the only ones who knew. Or were they one in the same? When Casey said she could feel she was close by..maybe that was when “someone” put them there..perfect spot. But then when RK knows
there is a bag of bones there..the officer clears it. He can’t very well say, I’m telling you I put it there myself OKaaaaaaaay…LOL LOL LOL
Snoop — Soop … and JB —- y’all must remember since way back — even on the GW blog….. I said Kronk is a crock of crap! “Nuff said for now —- moring all.
Snoop, you inspired me to reread the Cain interiviews. In his first interview something very strange is said.
RC: We arrived. He was on the left side of the road. (Inaudible)….
YM: You say left. On the south side of the road?
RC: Yeah (affirmative), the south side of the road.
YM: Okay.
Now, what is strange about it is Kronk should have been on the right, not left, unless Cain drove right past him without seeing him, turned around at the school and came back. I don’t think a Blue Cavelier would be invisible even if Kronk was back in the woods relieving himself again. To further add to the strangeness of this interview,
“RC: Uhm, I don’t recall if he was in the grass or on the sidewalk. I believe he was in the grass. Uhm, we pulled up, met with Roy. Uh, then went to where he said he relieved, was relieving himself. Uhm, he said he saw a bag. He thought, thought it contained bones possibly.”
First of all, he said “we pulled up” and previously said, “We arrived”. Who is the other party contained in we? It isn’t Keithlin Cutcher, she drove separately and arrived as Cain was exiting the woods. Second, the only side of the road that has a sidewalk is the left side, as you drive into Suburban. Remember, it is a dead end and there is only one way in, from the West. The North side is the only side with a sidewalk. Also keep in mind that he is sitting right there on Suburban drive during this interview and only has to look out the window to see where the sidewalk is or isn’t.
On page 19 of the 15:12 interview on Dec. 18, the 2nd one done that day, Sgt. Allen says, while talking about searching that area, responding to calls, etc., “We found uh, since the beginning of this we found a, a lot of uh, obviously uh, we conducted an exhaustive search…” So, Allen is admitting they had done an exhaustive search but yet never found her. I also found it strange that it seemed so important to Allen and Melich to establish, in this 2nd interview, that Cain hadn’t really poked or prodded a bag. It’s also strange that Cain simply agrees with them, as if he is cooperating, no explanation of how he came to that change of mind. Wouldn’t you think there should be more there? It sounds like there was a conversation before the recorded conversation that was the preamble to this change in his story, but they make no mention of this at all, other than this hint on page 1, “YM: Okay. Uh, it’s been a couple hours, and I know that during that time you’ve had some chance to think about the call, and think about what actually happened. And I understand that from the onset what you originally told us, it differs a little bit from what you told us now because you’ve had a little bit of time to think about it, correct?” On page 4 they describe taking a walk in the woods before they began the recording. I suppose this is when his recollection changed? He is clearly saying that the path Kronk led him to was further east (just like where I saw the body hunter’s dog going). The path is not as open or clear as the path where Caylee was found in December. He seems to recall details so I wouldn’t think it is simply that he doesn’t recall things well. He even says there were no palms where Kronk had him look. But in two hours time, his statment changes. Pg 6,
“JA: And when you picked the bag up that leaves and sticks came out.
RC: Right.
JA: Okay, what I’m asking is did that happen? Did you pick a bag up?
RC: Not a bag (sighs).”
On to Kethlin Cutcher’s interview, the one that arrived when Cain was exiting the woods on Aug. 13.
YM: And here, here is our, just because we’re recording, here’s our command post. It’s parked right up against…..
JA: (Coughs.)
YM: …next to the uh, wooden fence.
KC: Yeah (affirmative), so it is from the wooden fence until where the end of the big trees go. So that’s before the curve. I’m a….
YM: Okay.
KC: …hundred percent sure.
YM: Okay.
JA: Alright.
KC: Because we never made it to the curve.
YM: Okay.
JA: Alright.
YM: Do you remember a light post being nearby, or?
KC: No. The only thing I remember is that when after we talked to the caller we walked to the other side because….
YM: Uh-hum (affirmative).
KC: …before I thought was a uhm, I had an impression it was a pond. But walking now I can see that it is a fence, but it’s not a pond. It’s kind of like a, just a, a uh, vacant lot or something.
YM: Uh-hum (affirmative).
JA: Okay.
KC: But I remember that we went the other side. We walk and look around a little bit, just to making sure there was nothing there too, and then we left.
JA: Okay.
KC: So.
JA: Alright.
KC: But I’m a, a hundred percent sure that it is between the fence and where the big trees finish.
There is a light post right at the end of the wooden fence so there is a light post nearby. So why, when asked this question, does she talk about going across the street, as if they were on the North and not South side of the road. I went searching for an audio of this interview because I didn’t know if the name was a man or woman’s and found there was another interview, before this one, dated Dec. 18. http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/anthony_case/040609_Interview_with_Deputy_Kethlin_Cutcher This is the audio of both interviews. The picture they have on the audio shows the light post, fence and the sidewalk across the street. But you can also see these details in Bing or Google maps. In this audio interview, she says that there are lots of bags around so what’s the deal with Cronk’s 2nd interview changing to no bag? She recalls Kronk looking sad when Cain told him it was nothing. She believes it was that he was sad it wasn’t her, not that he was upset with Cain.
All of this is even more suspicious to me now than when I first read Cain’s interviews.
Excellent examination of Cain’s interviews Zuben. Excellent! Thank you.
Zuben —-you ARE amazing!
Yes, Zuben..They both had more than one interview. I listened to them all on You tube.
I was going to post links..but last time I ended up with the full videos etc. Didn’t know
if Jb wanted that. Yes, as I said in my post they both say there was more than one bag.
There was garbage. Cain says he picked up the bag… and leaves and sticks.. and he describes
the twigs look as though cut up into yard waste. He goes into detail in the first
interview about that. And in Cutcher’s interview she describes the bags ..plural.. as well.
And she says Kronk keeps saying at least 5 times that she said she was near by. And was
sad when nothing was discovered.
Thats all exactly what I was saying..Cain changed his story after the 2 hrs and the walk etc.
Cutcher remains firm..and it basically backs up what Cain said. NOONE did anything
to piss RK off which is the excuse he used for not going back til Dec. It is ALL crap!
I also am going to put a link in the next post as well. LE really tries to throw these people under..Cain changed his story about the bag..but Le basically tried to fill in the rest.About
the peice of something that was size of the leaf and 3 things it could have been. I mean
I don’t think Cain would have appealed his termination..if he knew that he out right lied.
But, he remained on the job after termination. Finally I guess the presure got to him..and he RESIGNED.
You’re quite welcome, Comment, and thank you, Hazaka. Nothing special though, just common sense questions and observations.. Please, help me keep an objective perspective here. Could Melich really be looking at the South side of the road as the normal left, when it is a dead end road? When Allan said,”And when you picked the bag up that leaves and sticks came out.” Cain answers, “Right” just like he said in his first interview. But then Allen turns around and says, “Okay, what I’m asking is did that happen? Did you pick a bag up?” Now, is he asking this again, as a cue to get this answer on record? “Not a bag (sighs)” Is the sigh because he lied before and is not telling the truth or because he is bending under pressure? We know he wasn’t completely lazy because Cutcher saw him in the woods looking. What would be his motive for lying? I can’t think of any that makes sense. If Melich and Allen would except no other answer than he never looked and he was right where Caylee was found, was he nothing but a fall guy? If so, what is their motive, especially after saying that area had been extensively searched? Are we looking at a case where LE will do what ever it takes to get a guilty conviction? If so, why? Because she lied to them and stole money from Amy and her grandmother? Something just isn’t right with this investitagion, IMHO.
One thing led to another and I’m back reading the autopsy/tox report so I’ll proably be back with more questions.
Your questioning if RK was a fall guy really peaked interest. Yes, I think he was under
some pressure and possibly had some kind of suggestion given him to have given the
sigh and and went with their suggestion. I know this if a bit off my skull, but do you think LE actually had found Caylee earlier and put her body back for someone else to find. I know too much turkey, lol, sorry but this is all very very very interesting. LE’s desperation to get a guilty conviction indicates there is something in their handling they may be needing to cover, is that possible?
Hi Comment..It has been speculated..I looked but haven’t found yet..that LE or someone had found the remains..and then..someone put them near the Anthony’s. So not far fetched for those
thinking out of the box..Nothing can be looked at face value in this case IMO.
So..nothing would surprise me. It seems it all came up when the divers were at the lake and found bones in the water if I recall.LE said nothing was retained. That was Nov 14, 2008. That is when TM and LP had words and disagreements if I recall. By Nov 20/2008 Anthony’s attorney Nejames resigned .Soon to represent Tim Miller..and pay Roy Kronk $5,000 for
finding the remains.
Ok..You also have 2 other deputies that went in regards to RK 911 calls. Adriana Acevedos
on 8/11 she 56′d the call no findings. I will put just that link here to you tube..It is
the only audio I can find..as many news sites have broken links. I find listening vs reading
really does give you better perspective..So I try to listen to all. The only thing better would
be visual LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjZY6fZgni
Then you also have Elizabeth Collins..who went on 8/12 when RK called a 9pm.
Although she searched..It was to dark so she referred him to call next day..Which
prompted the 8/13 call When Cain&Cutcher came out. I could not find audio but here
is her transcript http://www.wftv.com/blank/19342070/detail.html
Thinking about Kronks interviews..I recall when Le asked him to not talk to anyone
media and such just yet..That they knew he wanted to make a statement if he could hold
off. He said yeah okay..but at some point Roy Kronk has to eat too.
Also I went back and looked at the motion Baez filed a year ago 11/20/09 and reviewed..
“The motion of limine to introduce prior bad acts and other circumstancial evidence
pertaining to Roy M Kronk” . It refreshed my mind about all. Baez is QUITE detailed
about the 911 calls that Kronk made..what he said..the contradictions ..the various colors
of the bag..the various descriptions of the skull etc.. Good Read Good Review. Also it of course includes witnesses..including RK’s son Brandon Sparks..that now
seems to have backed down as well. IMO something is wrong with that. I think
some witnesses are fearful now. Whether it be authorties..or basic public harassment..
threats..etc.
It is quite lengthy..But not BORING.
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/1120/21678734.pdf
Zuben, and yes, I use to go to a website Brians Dreams early on..because although it dealt with
paranormal ..their was not any hate comments..it was interesting to a degree..and a lot of
mapping etc.. That is where Gail St John communicated..So I watched that video when he first
posted it..and many times after..They did not want her searching there.
Hi Guys!
If anyone has the link to Gail St. John’s video, please post it. I’d love to see again myself.
TIA,
JB
Comment, you say, could they have found her (there) and put her body back?…I can’t quite wrap my head around her being there, removed then put back there. If they simply wanted someone other than LE to find her they could have easily have made sure it happened on Aug. 11, 12 or 13th. They monitor the tips line, I’m sure. They could have made sure Kronk was there the 1st or 2nd day, even if they had to escort him from work or home, take him by the hand and have him point her out, if in fact, she was there. I don’t think she was there, based on the changing color of the bag, a white skull that couldn’t have been white, since it wasn’t bleached by the Sun, etc. Kronk’s August story just doesn’t fit any of the facts as we know them, from the find in December. He obviously isn’t color blind so the bag can’t change from grey or metalic silver to tan and black. Now, I think Brad Conway is colorblind, if I recall correctly. But that’s the wrong person and he wasn’t even in the picture way back in August.
LE also had the perfect opportunity to make sure she was discovered during any of the searches by TES, since they gave them direction. Allen said to Cain they had done an exhaustive search of that area, prior to Dec. 11. No, I don’t think that is what is going on but not sure what’s up. I wish I knew exactly why Cindy isn’t sure that was Caylee. If this little skeleton was planted there with the intention of Kronk finding her it was a very poorly exucuted plan.
No, what it seems to me, is that someone wanted that area to be fully cleared and then she was placed there. I don’t believe she was there in August when Kronk claims to have seen a white skull and grey or silver bag. I don’t believe she was there in September when several people wandered through that area, including JJ and LB, along with a few dogs. There were people wandering around there in July and surely there would have been an odor to lead them right to her. It would take month for the odor to disappear and it would have increased with the animal opened the bag to move her. I’m not pointing any fingers but if Kronk was the guilty party he carried out a genius plan. He had the area eliminated by LE, formally. TES should have done more work there but somehow never did. I’ve heard no questions yet as to why but we haven’t read Miller’s depo either. Could someone in LE have told him it was already covered? If Kronk was a pawn that was given direction, perhaps he just didn’t get the details right or got too specific so the details didn’t match reality. The white skull detail sounds more like a movie he watched. Bones don’t get white until they’ve spent time in the sun or have aged more. They woudn’t be white under those conditions. Think about it. How may people would sit there on the road side, hear their co-worker say, “Hey, look, it’s Caylee Anthony’s skull!”, and just sit there, more interested in a dead snake. NO WAY! They would have marched straight in that woods and looked. I think Kronk must have presented it in a way that wasn’t convincing and that wouldn’t happen if he really saw a white skull that later put itself back in a different colored bag, was no longer white, grew some hair and tape and then rolled out but didn’t roll out, according to LE. They would need that part of the story so they could claim the root growth proved she was there for months and months. Oh, and don’t forget they brought Miller in there, even though the defense was barred, to show him the ground was indented where the skull sat, showing it had been there a really long time. Yeah, right. The skull is so heavy it depressed the ground. Also, any skeleton laid out on top of vegetation will not keep the roots from growing. The leaves it sat on would die from lack of light but the vine would continue to grow. Several species there would put out roots from the leaf node that a bone lay on.
Also, isn’t in curious that both people directly involved in that August non-find have been relieved of their jobs. Were they both pawns? Do we have anything other than gossip as to who Kronk’s girlfriend at the time was, the one that people speculate sent him there? One other thought that occurred to me…perhaps Kronk just thought he saw her in August, someone thought the area was cleared by LE so it was safe to put her there, then determined Kronk just happened on her for real when he went back in December. It is possible the $$ acting as stars in his eyes made him so determined to find her he was mistaken in August but did for real later on. Where thoughts go, energy flows and sometimes it can lead to being at the right place at the right time.
I apologize for all the long posts. I do go on, don’t I.
Hi JB, Here you go. http://psychicgalestjohn.com/blinddrive/
Hey Zuben,
Thanks..I’m going to watch it now. BTW, there’s a new post up for tomorrow’s hearing.
Zub, in the 3rd 911 call..Kronk saysthat his blue calvalier is facing the road in the opposite direction .
Oh yes you do Zuben, but I hope you keep going on. You are the greatest professor I have ever experienced and the rest here are just as worthy. JB if not for you we would
not have the much appreciated opportunity to expand our minds. Thank you for the
great blog and your posts leading us to these discussion sessions.
Jb didn’t see zub leave the link. Thats the one you want. I was in You tube looking at something else and just sent a link from there. But it is probably one of a series.. not the
full one.
Wow!!
Very interesting discussion you guys have here! I don’t know where to begin.
@Comment, You’ve raised a question, I’ve always had in the back of my mind. Did LE know where Caylee was the entire time? Or this: Did LE REALLY clear this entire area in July before Roy Kronk made his first discovery on Aug 11th? Wouldn’t that have teed LE off?
And thinking like Zuben, would LE do anything to get a conviction? Hmm..maybe
My observation, the official date Dec 11th when the Anthony’s were in L.A. doing Larry King, Kronk gets the word to go back making it easy for LE to search the Anthony home without any supervision.
Thanks Zuben and Snoop,
Amazingly how close the St. John’s were to the location. I’m more assured now that my friend was right. He said there were always people searching this area on the daily basis not just Kronk. Not just TES, so lets not rule out Laura Buchanan or Joe Jordan. People did go out on their own. And then you hear Gail St. John say, “they cleared this area with cadaver dogs.” That statement always comes up.
Jb I think you should take the you tube link off. If anyone watches it vs the long version they will Miss the walk..which shows the area prior to it being cleared away… if its not there they will see Zub’s link of the long version…Sorry about that..I just grabbed a link out of you tube since I was in there…forgetting they
only go 10 min or less generally.
Snoop,
Thanks for pointing that out. I went to both videos and I noticed that too. No problem about YouTube..Its my usual source too. I appreciate you trying though..
Oh Zub, don’t have much time..but wanted to tell you Kronk’s girlfriends/roomate’s name.
Michelle Carpentiere.
I knew I had it somewhere with some background on her..but it had been awhile and had to dig. She worked in Human Resources of the Orange county Corrections. She hired October
2006. And was promoted to executive assistant in October 2008.
LP had rumored that is where Kronk got his info. But he said because overhearing
something over at the jail. Like conversation between KC and Baez. It was rumored that is
why Baez was not touching it..like doing a depo or on a witness list and such.
But the state was not touching it either. Of course..It could have been overheard by someone in LE. so that makes sense as well.
Funny how her name was never brought up anywhere at all in police interviews..or
the media..except LP’s rumors?Hmmmm
Padillia said that he RK knew the body was there..but he was about 100 yards away. That was why no one who came out could find it.He had all the info he needed ..but was off a distance. So he wasdirecting them to the wrong spot.
Finally in Dec he got it right. Funny, Padillia flew in to Orlando on Tue. 12/9 (for what?) and
the remains of course were thur 12/11. And we all know the Anthony’s were gone to appear
on the Larry King show.
That is why Evans , RK’s attorney , was going after Padillia for slander or whatever..
because Padillia was saying that Kronk had inside info the whole time. Now, I wonder
what Padillia had come in town for? Ironic huh
Now I couldn’t recall how I got her info..I know RK lived on Salamander St Cloud, fl. Which is
basically Kissimee..I don’t have the number address at the moment. But I’m pretty sure
that is how I got the name from the address..The only thing I do remember it was odd
she was his girlfriend as I remember a man’s name as well being there with same last name. Perhaps
she was divorced. Don’t recall. I am pretty sure though..with Roy’s history, it was her home.
Well I will look a little more tomorrow maybe, into what I have. But, I think I recalled
from one of your recent posts that you were looking for her name. The more I thought about it..I remembered there was a lot of rumors. I had forgotten that..as there have been so many
things..whew!
Oh, a couple days ago , when I started reviewing..beginning with the Kronk 911 calls, I had
forgotten something until tonight as I went back to see where he said his car was parked.
In regards to Cain meeting him etc. which side of the road. In the 1st 911 call he was going to look at his GPS to tell the dispatcher who couldn’t find it on the map. I hear
him open and close a door. I listened a couple times Saturday..and then again tonite. It does
not sound like a car door. It sounds like a house or building? Maybe you could listen and
see what you think. Gosh..so many links are broken now to the news. I finally found one
here besides You tube. But it took me a few trys to play it? It is about the 1:50 mark
http://www.wftv.com/video/18347939/index.html
BTW here are the docs ..transcripts of 911calls .. crime line etc. The snake keeps getting bigger LOL..we heard 3ft 4ft..Crimeline has 6ft. LOL
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3710705/Roy-Kronk-911-Calls-January-2009
Good comentary JB
Goodnight all
Thanks, Snoop for the info. I have work to attend to but will come back when I finish. I hope to be done before the hearing so I can watch the real thing live this time, but who knows. Oh well. Talk soon.
Zuben, good link. Odd how they were drawn to there. The dog was getting sick, Travis?? The guy in the backseat is sick too – they are so close – eerie.
Snoop, the link you left to St. John’s video is good for showing where they were coming from, the side road that leads to Hopespring. Also, the end where they are searching is at the end of the road, down by the school. If they were so sure the dog and Travis were reacting to Caylee being in that wooded area why wait until the next day (no video taken then I assume) and instead focus on the trail at the dead end? Makes no sense to me, but what does in this case?
Yes, you’re right, thank you. Kronk says, “Right. Yeah. I’m sitting, ugh, facing the road in the opposite direction…” Now, I can see where Kronk, if asked might say, he parked on the left-south side of the road but that wouldn’t be true for Cain and he is the one that said Kronk was on the left. He wouldn’t drive past Kronk and turn around to come back and park on the wrong side of the road, he would pull up in front of Kronk’s car facing the correct direction, wouldn’t you think?.
Anyway…
If Lenard P is the only source giving this info about this woman being Kronk’s girlfriend, I’d add it to all his other (non)reliable information. But even if this is true, I don’t see how she would be in a position to overhear anything, if such a conversation ever took place. Now, a guard might be in that position but not human resources. Perhaps, if a guard overheard, LE needed a way to get her found without it being discovered that they broke the rules by listening to privileged conversation, they might use their grapevine to learn that someone in human resources knew a meter reader that would be working that route and put a bug in his ear that maybe she is there. Long shot but possible IF Kronk’s girlfriend did work there. Who knows, maybe that had a guard watching them that knew how to read lips but remember, Baez said he’d heard clicking, as if the audio was working on their surveillance. They would be busted big time, might not even be able to use the discovery against Casey if they were found out. So they’d need to find a way to get her discovered that couldn’t easily lead back to them spying on an attorney-client conversation. But, I am positive, if this conversation ever took place, Baez would slap the girlfriend and/or guards with a subpoena to appear for a deposition and they’d be busted. Since we’ve seen nothing about a girlfriend in any of the docs or depo lists I doubt it ever happened. Also, if it happened they would have made sure she was found on Aug. 11, not waiting untill Dec. 11.
After the hearing today Mason said they have 15-20 people who were exactly at the spot and Caylee wasn’t there at that time. http://www.wesh.com/video/25952610/detail.html
Thank you very much Zuben,
Well, there you have it. It’s what we’ve been saying all along.
There were MANY other people who searched that area. Just look at them when Gale St. John went there. Wasn’t that in late July or early August?
And now we know why Finnell wants the list of defense witnesses kept from the public. Can you imagine KB circling their homes with WFTV trucks, chasing them down with a microphone? Not to mention the blogger/s making videos and posting interviews on their blogs?
Yes, seeing is believing but I’m believing right now.
The body hunters, Gail St. John was on Suburban drive on August 11, the same day Kronk was there. Busy day, wouldn’t you say?
I’d say it was like Fat Tuesday..Zub
I’m believing too JB. I sure hope this witness list is strong. I’d love to see the convicting know it alls squirm some.
Interesting day…the in camera hearing with Strickland way back when, stands up today by Perry. They must both be satisfied what Baez spent $200K+ in the beginning. I also found it strange that one month ago in court Mason said there were 6-8 people now there is 15-20.
It was also mentioned that these people were under the TES radar because they searched on there own, unrelated to TES. It kind of leads one to believe there could be more people that searched but never found anything other wise they would have called in. My gut feeling is that there won’t be someone to back up what Baez & Mason wants them to.
I can understand why some of those people would not want to respond when you have the defense PI running around badgering people and trying to put words in their mouths. The PI needs to be reeled in and put on a short leash. He will end up doing more harm than good.
I am not a fan of Kathi B either. In the begining of this case she was at the Anthony house, the jail and the court house along with other media people. I have not heard of her or any other media systematically track down people on the witness list. The media has shown up at depos except the last one. Belich was the only one to show up for the Buchanan depo, the other media must have been smarter about the outcome. I don’t think we have to worry about Belich becoming a national reporter any time soon…..
I was really hoping Judge Perry would address the Finnell’s motion regarding the defense witness list. Now with Cheney’s new claim, it seems reasonable. Look what happened to Laura Buchanan and how she was looked over with a microscope. We, the general public don’t know what type of harassment this woman went through with the media or maybe SAO investigators. I’m sure they did a background check, etc. Not everyone wants their background checked and publicized like it’s done in Florida. So, I wouldn’t be so quick to think it’s the defense team that’s the problem.
BTW, didn’t she approach the defense team first? Just a thought.
Zub & Snoop,
I’ve always thought LP was a nuisance who did nothing but tarnish the investigation and make a spectacular event of Caylee’s disappearance. We can all thank NG for that with her sensationalism.
Not to be a sexist, but we all know men like “pretty”. If KC wasn’t attractive, she wouldn’t have gotten half of this publicity. It just makes me angry when we’re trying to find out why the Keystone Cops didn’t find Caylee. It’s simply unbelievable. I want to think they cleared this area with cadaver dogs but no one will admit to it because they can’t.
And because she wasn’t found in August, valuable forensics were lost no matter who did it!! It’s just shameful. So if it comes to the fossil scientists and botany experts and they say “Caylee wasn’t there” oh well..
Damagdpets, I finally had a chance to follow the link you left. Thank you, very interesting and disturbing.
Ralph Armstrong, falsely imprisoned for over 28 years: Government Misconduct, Eyewitness Misidentification, Unvalidated or Improper Forensic Science
Levon Brooks, 16 years served unfairly: Government Misconduct, Unvalidated or Improper Forensic Science. The guy doing autopsies there made over $1M/yr and wasn’t even board certified.
Barry Gibbs, over 17 years: Government Misconduct, Eyewitness Misidentification, Informant / Snitch. This case is just infuriating. A cop had been doing mob hits and manipulated the case evidence to frame and convict this poor guy. The eyewitness later said the cop threatened his family if he didn’t tell the story the way he demanded. This cop and another NYPD cop were later convicted of 8 murders but you can be there were more they didn’t get them on. The jailhouse snitch had helped them in many cases. They probably paid him by smuggling drugs in to him.
Paul House spent 22 years in prison: Unreliable/Limited Science, Forensic Science Misconduct, Bad Lawyering. Linda Kenny-Baden helped pro-bono with this one. They proved an FBI agent testimony false and showed that the blood they were using to convict him cam from the victim after death. There were several vials of her blood missing.
Walter Swift served 28 years: Eyewitness Misidentification, Unvalidated or Improper Forensic Science, Government Misconduct, Bad Lawyering. His court appointed attorney clearly didn’t do his job but also an FBI agent withheld a lab report and there was other misconduct.
I hope we see the Innocence Project and other groups looking at more of these cases. There isn’t always DNA evidence to find. It boggles my mind to imagine a defense attorney’s burden because not only do they need to go over the evidence with a fine tooth comb, they need to inspect the handling of evidence thoroughly too, to watch for mishandling or worse. For example, Q12, the hair with supposed signs of decomp was divided, the root portion placed on a slide and the rest of it sent for mitochondrial DNA anaylsis. Also, they said it was similar to the hair found in hair brush Q15 but wasn’t that the brush that both Caylee and Casey used? Their expert will need to make sure the hair is the right color, that the root color matches the end color, etc. I didn’t make the connection until now, while looking back at these docs but this hair was found on the same side of the trunk as the garbage bag, the left side, which would be the drivers side, I believe. Then we see problems with a duplication of item numbers. Doc page 3371-2 has Q59 listed as being debris from trash bag, OCSO item #2a-Q47 but Q59 is also the designation for the hair mass. Page 3583 has FBI Q59 hand written on an item that is a hair in a petri dish collected from the pizza box, “symbol of quality, left side. Wow, lots of Q59s to choose from, huh? Wouldn’t it be simple to enter each item, with its number into the computer for all to see and use for numbering correctly? How can something like this happen accidently? It isn’t like they originally thought the remains find was connected to another case other than the open Caylee Anthony case. Even though they wrote unknown on the initial paperwork, there is plenty of evidence to show they were sure it was Caylee, and cernainly knew by the time they started numbering all the evidence there.
JB, I think you are right in that LB contacted the defense. What I can’t understand is how she signed a statement and in effect lied. What was the gain? The new people Mason claims they have come up with….why have none of these people contacted the defense in the last 2 years….I honestly believe that there was nothing to contact them about.
Another curious thing was St John and her dog. The dog didn’t hit on the area. She complained about the area already being searched. Her and her dog didn’t find anything. She was getting donations and trying for a TV show, makes me suspicious. She could be the female LP. If people are thinking that Kronk moved the body around, how do you suppose he faked several months of growth around Caylee’s remains. I honestly believe this will be shown through forensics at trial.
I don’t know much about the botanist. I do know he showed up late and that is why he had to go off of pictures. I think he showed up on the 14th. I have been looking for that link for some time. Prosecutors drove up to his location to give him a cd full of pictures. He tested plant life in a different area to come to an conclusion of what happened to Caylee. If he would have been there that morning, perhaps he could have examined the roots in place and photograph the clusters if there were any. I am not sure what they mean when they say roots. Roots grow down I think. Vines grow up or sideways, but any old vine can find its way into just about anything that is placed there, even if it is only two weeks. I can’t stop grass from growing in the cracks of my sidewalk. It only takes a week. lol I will look for the link to the botanist report, but its very hard to find. thanks
Hi Zub, I am going to post this over here since my post are not showing up in the other thread. Hope it doesn’t end up posted 3 times. thanks nts
Hi, Zub, sorry if this comes out twice. Here is the report that I was looking at. benzodiazepines is the drug she was talking about. Interesting read and so are a couple other stories by her.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-21/the-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-30/did-the-porn-biz-kill-them/?cid=tag:all4
thanks nts
HI — Ya’all —maybe I’m wrong —but isn’t Wendy Murphy from Massachusettes?
NTS, if your post didn’t show up right away it is probably in moderation because it has more than one link. No biggy. Wendy Murphy, Wendy Murphy…where have I seen and heard her name? Is it Nancy Grace or JVM?n Anyway, the drug I mentioned is a member of this group of drugs and is specifically listed as what they searched for, along with other drugs, in a general sense. They found nothing and I still believe the reason that looked for that drug specifically, is because of the Xanex comment found on her computer. I don’t believe LE wants to go down the path of a potential pedophile. They’re just covering their butts, by testing for semen too. Their only serious goal is to find evidence to connect Caylee’s death to Casey and Xanex may have been their ace if they found any. No luck there.
Wendy Murphy … an attorney has been “around” since the OJ days — I have found most of her comments “skewed”, always pro-prosecution, no matter what — and frankly, oftimes … distasteful………… but ,.whatever ….
Hi Hazaka,
Nice to see you again. Yes, Wendy Murphy is from Boston. I think her article is right on target. “It’s not what we see, it’s what’s missing” Interesting.
I’m glad NTS provided this link.
I think so too Zuben. Zanny was associated with Xanax from the beginning but I never thought it was important. Annie Downing may have had a Rx, and doled one or two out sometimes to friends, but I wouldn’t call her the “Xanax connection” like some people want to think.
The only other thing that I can think of that’s missing is chloroform. I don’t recall the findings of that in the autopsy report. I’ll have to double check. Even so, I don’t think it would be easy to detect even in bone marrow.
Thanks for pointing that out Zub. I guess the interesting thing about the article was the ability of Sa to withhold documentation. I don’t know if she is just talking there either, but I won’t take her seriously anymore and thanks for the heads up. I am still looking for the botanist report. thanks nts
Morning all. NTS, It took some doing but I found it. I would have just copied and pasted my copy but it copies as an image and can’t do that here. It begins on page 3810 http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4787465/Casey-Anthony-crime-scene-where-Caylee-was-found-released-5-March-09
theJBmission
——————-
Morning! Yes, Murphy is correct in this …and all situations…. we must consider not what we see … but what we “DON’T” — what is missing….. I just find her a tad too skewed all too often…..
Thank you so much zub for the link. I noticed something new this time when I read it. He states that the leaves had not been under water since the fall of 08. He mentions it a couple of times. When do the leaves fall in Florida? I don’t know how he determined this. Anyone know? At anyrate, could this be proof that AREA A was not under water throughout the fall? That is what the water report says and this would confirm it. Searchers that were there were saying that the area was under water and that is why they could not search, however, there are now 2 reports that say AREA A was not under water. I wonder how accurate his estimation of the roots sizes were. By Dec 15th, via the myfoxorlando crime scene photos, that area had been completley raped of vegetation. Also, he noted that the recovery site was under a pine tree, which also is shown in the photos. The branches are very high, and probably allow sunlight in the area to enhance root growth. I hope the defense has gone in there and taken pictures with the same type of camera from different distances to see how someone can estimate the diameter of a root. If anyone should have been there on day one, its this guy. IMO
Also, I think you guys were talking about “Air Potato” earlier and the plant was mentioned in the report as a non native unwanted plant. I think these plants are the result of dumped plant material along the tree line. IMO
Just reading all of the great comments here and thought I’d add this regarding Gale St. John and her blind drive on Suburban.
In Gale St. John’s blind drive video, at about 3:07 minutes when Travis Sanders is saying that he feels sick to his stomach, listen carefully.
Someone says something like “Is this _ _ _ _ _ ?” Travis replies, “Could be.” I first heard this when this video was first placed on the internet many months ago and I have always thought that she says “Is this Kronk?”
Also, the woman in the front seat had just gotten out of the car with the dog, Moolah, and when this is said she appears to be looking down the road, past the back of their car…as if she’s looking at someone or something behind them on the road.
Then again it could truly just be my imagination and I’m hearing what I think they’re saying rather than what they’re actually saying. I’d be very interested to hear your opinions on what you think is actually being said. I’d love to know for sure one way or the other!
This is an interesting audio recording of a radio broadcast with St. John and Brian Ladd:
At about 5:59 minutes, St. John relates that they saw Kronk on Aug 11th when they were filming the blind drive on Suburban! Her description of his actions are rather creepy!
What time of day was the blind drive filmed, before or after Kronk’s break in the woods with his coworkers? Is this sighting of Kronk on Aug 11th the reason for St. John and crew having been placed on the defense witness list?
She also says that they visited Suburban Drive not once but THREE different times on Aug 11th! It’s possible that the encounter with Kronk was not when the blind drive was being filmed but on one of the other two occasions when they visited Suburban that day.
Thank You Sandrine.
Well first I would like to say that any physchic could go to any given town and do a recording in each and every woods location to later claim victory if a body is found at one of those locations. They also went out to Blanchard park. So, from the start, it sounded like a setup to me. However, it is very possible that they saw Kronk since it was the same day. I have always wondered if he came back after the other guys left.
IIRC it should be noted that one of the searchers in the LE interviews said that when they were searching that area, ( sept) that a man and a woman in a white van came up to her and said that Caylee is just beyond the end of the fence there. She asked them if they were physchic, they replied “something like that” Later when she saw Kronk on the news, she thought he was the same person. (maybe Lori Cree? )
Also, Joy Wray of all people said she saw Kronk that day. So , I wonder if Gail saw Joy.
In the video, they were east of the opening and the dog was trying to go east away from the body. I wish I knew what time slot their video was.
One more note. IIRC in the first 911 call, Roy is going down to his gps to get the location, so Don’t know if he had his truck with him or what. Later in January in an interview when asked about why he thought 50 percent it was the same location back in august, he said, well I gave you longitude and latitude. What did he mean by that. I found it interesting that he could remember as far forward as january in an interview, way back to aug 11 and the difference in the way the crime scene looked aug 13th when the officer was there. He was trying to explain grey pool cover, white thing, white board hanging over. After reviewing the crime scene pics, I can see that it is very close to the wood line and the path is obvious. A friend on WS told me that she went there and was surpised that the embankment was not steep at all. MOO
Ps I find it hard to believe that there is no interview of his girlfriend.
Hi Sandrine,
Before I watched the video link you provided I went to the link that Zuben provided. Oddly enough, the video from Gale St. John’s site isn’t working tonight but it was 2 weeks ago. Perhap this is because Gale St. John is now a witness for the Defense.
IMO, you are correct it does sound like Travis said “Is this Kronk”. But what bothers me is Gale says she didn’t know at the time that it was Kronk who was driving slowly in his company truck so how & why would Travis say “Is this Kronk?” lol I guess he really is psychic.
To answer your question, in my opinion, it was the first drive of three named “the blind drive” which would indicate that it was most likely early in the day. Just my guess. Isn’t there a time stamp on the video? But..if you’re convinced that Travis says “Is this Kronk” then NO. How would they know Kronk’s name or what he looks like. JMO
I just watched the video again and it is interesting that when they turn the corner and begin to by pass the crime scene, the dog starts panting heavy. Also to note, that the driver continues to say this was searched by cadaver dogs. Really? when? where did she hear that? I mean to say that this is aug 11th before fay. They stop east of the crime scene, but not very far east. They are very very close. IMO
August 11th, he supposedly is going through training for that area. I noted in the video that the news media was at the Anthony home. I wonder if they have coverage of Kronk reading the meter. I saw a Wesh 2 truck.
NTS,
When did they search with cadaver dogs?? Good question…IMO, they searched the same day that Forgey searched the Ant’s backyard. According to Yuri Melich’s report Forgey cleared this area in July. Of course now they’re not very sure.
But this explains why Kronk wasn’t taken seriously by Sgt. Cain and maybe why Tim Miller wasn’t willing to destroy his 4 wheeler when he came down to Orlando. JMO
Hello Sandrine. You bring up an interesting question, what time of day was she there and did she see Kronk? I just listened to that part again and couldn’t make out anything that sounded like, Is that Kronk? I think she said, could be, because Travis asked would she put her that close. JB, the link works for me. I downloaded it for safe keeping though, after you said she may have disabled it. http://psychicgalestjohn.com/blinddrive.htm I have in my possession, an email written by Gale St. John, complete with full header, (You know what a stickler for details I am) stating the the time stamp on the camera is correct and that it read 10 am. I know, from watching the video it isn’t morning, it is afternoon. Just look at the shadows, especially noticeable when they are getting in and out of the car. Notice the direct light on the inside of the passenger door when it is open and the shadow cast by both women and the dog. Look at the 7:51 mark and keep in mind that the road angles to the NE/SW so there is more light on the side of the car that is to the South than there would normally be when the Sun is so far to the North, as it is in Summer, but by Aug. 11 it was heading back South quite a ways too. I can’t tell you exactly what time but I’m pretty sure it was after Kronk was there. One reason is, the dog isn’t attracted to a dead snake, as well as not attracted to where Caylee was ultimately found. Oh, I’ve got it, maybe they drove over it, leaving it as a trophy for the meter reader society to find. The other reason is, the shadows look to long to be very early afternoon. But you’ve raised the question in my mind, did the body hunters meet Kronk? My nagging questions, though, is why would she say it was 10am if it was really afternoon? Her state is only an hour different, so it can’t be a difference in time to account for that much difference and it can’t be a simple mistake.
Oh, one other thing, it was Curtis Jackson that wrote the letter to the court. http://www.docstoc.com/docs/65688028/20101207-Correspondence-to-Court—Curtis-Jackson Here is his MDOC info: http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=282320 He has also entered 3 filings against, I believe, the parole board members for a violation of civil rights.
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/michigan/miwdce/2:2010cv00218/63990/
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/michigan/miwdce/2:2010cv00268/64370/
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/circuit-courts/ca6/10-2597/
The latest one was just filed Dec. 7. If you do any searching, don’t confuse rapper, 50 cent, currently filming a Bruce Willis film in Michigan, with the inmate. That is his name too.
Hello and good morning everyone.
NTS: I’m not at all convinced that the name Kronk is said; it’s one of those things where, not being sure of the word used, and thinking it could have been “Kronk”, that’s what I hear when I listen to it. I can’t think of another word that fits the sound of the word being spoken.
It’s also confusing as there are two conversations going on at the same time; Travis in the back seat speaking to the woman with the dog about not feeling well while St. John in the driver’s seat is talking about the area having been searched by cadaver dogs.
For certain they shouldn’t know Kronk’s name on August 11. It does seem to me that St. John has been told by someone in the know that the area had been searched by cadaver dogs and cleared. This would agree with Melich having stated the area was cleared when asked about it following Kronk’s 911 calls.
I also recall the TES searcher saying that she thought she may have seen Kronk on Suburban. It was Helen Davis and just for reference, from her statement (sorry, I don’t have a link for it online, I have it saved on my pc):
“Helen Davis mentioned having possibly seen either Roy Kronk or James Hoover on the day she and the Churchill’s were searching the area. She saw the male with an older woman who was claiming to be a psychic.
The psychic insisted Caylee Anthony was buried just -west of the fence at the end of the road. When she asked the male his name, he refused to identify himself. When asked if he was a private detective or something, he allegedly replied “kinda”. She didn’t pay much attention to him at the time, but when she saw Roy Kronk’s image on television after the body was found, she believed it may have been him. She based this on the color of the shirt he was wearing on television and on his eyes. Shortly after her group began to actually search the area, the psychic and male left the area in a white van.”
* * * * * * * * * * * *
It’s amazing to think of how much activity there was on Suburban Drive over such a length of time, and no one (some with cadaver dogs) found remains that were lying only feet from the road. IMO, I don’t believe the remains were there yet to be found.
Zuben, I also noted the long shadows being cast when I was trying to figure out the time frame of the video.
St. John, while still on Suburban, says “we have to get this done and then get something to eat”. Is it nearing the dinner hour then, as the casting of shadows wouldn’t allow for it to be a lunchtime break?
And what is she referring to that they have to get done? If she means searching the woods on Suburban as the thing that has to “get done”, it certainly wouldn’t be something that could be done quickly with time to spare to get something to eat, especially if it is already late afternoon.
Good Morning,
@ Zuben, I’m sorry but I forgot about the shadows. That woud indicate sometime afternoon. When I went to watch the video again (the one I couldn’t get to work) I was looking for a van moving slowly in the opposite direction (as Gale stated) to see if it corresponded with Travis’s statement. Then that would be logical. “Is it Kronk” So I’ll try again.
@ Sandrine, yes it is amazing to think about all of the traffic on Suburban Dr. I would say there’s a definite Mardi Gras atmosphere. More like Bourbon Dr. than Suburban Dr. IMO
Good morning JB. In the video, when still parked on Suburban, the person with the video camera comes over to the driver’s side window; St. John rolls down the window and video camera lady says something like “here comes a car”. Could it be then?
Also, after St. John makes a turnaround at the school and heads back down Suburban (towards Hopespring) they are passed by what looks like a small white pickup-like truck which is heading in the direction of the school.
Mardi Gras atmosphere, how true!
I agree with you Sandrine, I find it hard to believe Caylee was there either.
I’m going to try and watch it again from link Zuben provided as soon as I get my 1st cup of coffee.
I have a friend who lives in Orlando who told me early on that there were always people walking around in this area but didn’t believe it unti I saw Gale’s video. Unreal.
be back shortly,
JB
Enjoy your coffee… I just finished mine!
Sandrine,
Kinda funny .. I think he said “Moolah, WTF!” because Moolah the dog got sick in the car. Rhymes with “is it Kronk” Ha! And I did hear Gale say something about ‘we have to get it done’ Were they doing interviews ,, maybe?? IDK
Well, I’m off to run errands, bbl.
You know, you’re right! The dog’s name is moolah, as in lots of money? While I want to earn income as much as the next person that certainly couldn’t be my main motive for using my psychic gifts. I would have to do it out of compulsion, not because of the money, in the same way I am compelled to look closely at the facts of this case. That little girl compels me, not money. Hmmm. Maybe someone not a body hunter named the dog.
Gale talks about an interview on the morning of the 12th, saying it (the search) would take hours so the cameraperson says she and the others will come back, hide the car and search. I wonder, when they say, “they said they searched by the school”, who is they? Tes hasn’t been there yet? She had to have been talking about someone that searched on their own so this would be one reason the defense has her on the witness list. He needs to know who that is.
JB, to answer a question you had on the other thread, I’m sure the DNA isn’t back yet because they hadn’t even received it as of the date on this document, Dec. 7. http://www.wesh.com/pdf/26065915/detail.html
Tomorrow…motion hearing…5PM.
http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/december/181842/Casey-Anthony-scheduled-for-Friday-court-hearing
Judge Perry allowed 45 days for the DNA tests…it’s gonna be a while.
In the St John video, Gale says a couple a times that the area had been searched and cleared.
Sorry…blind drive my behind…she had to have prior info. Does it not bother anyone that of all the people that searched that area Hoover and St John had video cameras? I think they both had motivation for other reasons.
The video was a little over the top. The dog handler claiming that who ever was the cadaver handlers did not know what they were doing. I didn’t hear her credentials and the language that came from all the people in the vehicle speaks volumes.
I agree Damagdpets. The whole thing sounded like a setup to me. But, there seems to be good info forthcoming from it. Like did she really see Kronk? Sounds like a lot of people on Suburban before the storm faye. One problem though, no one seems to know how to work a video camera down there. lol I think back to Hoovers video and wow, taken like a 4 year old.
Looks like the state has added a couple of the searchers that searched with Laura B on Sept 3rd. Not sure what that means, but that still leaves like 8 others. Really wish we could see Laura’s depo. I am afraid we are never going to get to see these depos. IMO
Hey Zuben,
I agree with you..Maybe Gail St. John is motivated by Moolah which is sad. Most gifted psychics do it out of compassion.. Not sure about her.
LOL Damagd..”blind drive my behind” Exactly.
Hi NTS, good comment. It amazes me that no one found any signs of a body even before Hurr. Fay.. Very telling.
~~
Well, I’m hoping today’s hearing will clear the air of this new rumor going around in the forums. They’re saying JB planted DNA…of course that’s because they say the DNA doesn’t belong to Casey. :sigh:
Yeah, right, Baez gave Kronk some DNA to plant, told him to lead Cain to the wrong bag in August then the right bag n December when most of any evidence would be degraded. Sounds like a winner to me.
Good morning all. Well, I see Perry is a man of his word, working during the dinner hour. No long weekend this week. Of course, I’ve noticed Baez filing with the clerk on Friday’s quite often so he must not take Friday’s off anyway. I haven’t read what this hearing is about. Do we know? My guess is, the issue of what is discoverable or will be made public. I think the judge will seal the penalty phase discovery. I also don’t expect Perry to make the defense tell Ashton much more than he already has but I could be wrong.
NTS, who did the state add? I haven’t had time to keep up. Have a great day all.
12/03/2010 …. Amended State Witness List
State Witness Thomas Achtizger – ShurTech – Akron, OH …. replaced with witness Mark Charlesworth – Shurtape Technologies – Hickory, NC – EXPERT
Thomas Hoffman – TES searcher who searched with Laura Buchanan on Sept 3, 2008 in Blanchard Park – his address added to List
- Kena Seegmiller – TES searcher who searched with Laura Buchanan on Sept 3, 2008 in Blanchard Park – her address added to List
Perhaps Thomas and Kena were not added, but their addresses added. Maybe they were already on there. There seems to be a lot of updating lately and there is a few that have moved out of state like Ricardo moved to Il.
Mark Charlesworth: I have been waiting for something like this. The old guy just worked up at henkel and probably didn’t know a lot about the ins and outs of the manufacturing. I have thought all along that the tape was made in Hickory or one of the small towns around it.
I think this could only mean that this person is going to testify that Henkel did not make tape without the cotton. He is listed as expert. I wonder if he will get deposed by the defense…. I don’t know where it is now, but a while back, I found shurtape brands that were 200 degree firegaurd that are made without the cotton. I am sure they will spec it out with cotton, but someone will have to interview employees to see if they always followed spec guide lines. Or find some rolls that have both cotton/poly blend and poly only… IMO
Thanks, NTS. I learned that the grunds were deposed Wednesday and found it interesting that they only scheduled 30 minutes for Jesse but could have had much longer planned for Richard. His was at 10 and the next one was scheduled for 1. They didn’t give notice it was being done till after they were completed that day, most likely to spare the Grunds being badgered by the media. If so, that was very considerate of them.
It sounds like Perry will not be too happy today having to sort out his court order. Naturally the defense does not want to show their hand but they have several witnesses that could testify in different areas. The good judge may admonish both sides for not working together. The state does not have a choice in what they have to give up. The defense is bordering a fine line with the judge’s order. There could be more motions gone over because they are all together and Perry has set a side the time. It will be carried live on WFTV.com @ 5 PM EST.
Thanks, D. I ate early, took a break from my work so I can watch live, hopefully.
Well, I was wrong. Next time I’ll cunsult my crystal ball.
I had some computer glitches but it sounded like Perry ordered Baez to give Ashton the subject matter, opinion and what they base their opinion on. I’m quite surprised but, it isn’t the first time.
Well it seems the judges order was what the state thought. He ordered that all experts must be listed as to the field they are testifying to, what issues they are going to testify to and a summary. This is to be done by Dec 23rd. The state claimed that all of their experts have provided thus far and none of the defense has done so otherwise this hearing wouldn’t have taken place. I blame both sides on this. The state stopped communicating with the defense and the defense did not follow the order to begin with. Hopefully the two sides will get the info needed. They still have quite a few people to depose. The judge was adamant that time was running out.
Zub, It’s not a matter of right or wrong it’s a matter of what Perry and the State of Florida require. Perry is doing everything he can to cut down the appeal process. This is a judge’s legacy. I have noticed that across the US the discovery laws are similar but not the same.
Beyond that…I thought they would discuss finances about the JAC and the money that Baez wants for more investigation. I remember Perry telling Baez that he would not give money unless it was documented on what it was used for, this way it would help with extensions.
I think there might be some up coming problems because Baez did not jump on some of Perry’s recommendations and now it’s going to cost the defense more money. The JAC is starting to get tougher with the dollars. I can’t say that I blame them, thousands spent and nothing. I’m willing to bet the people that Mason has talked about have nothing to offer.
On another note….I saw where TL moved to IL. It only interests me because LE knows where he is and will have to come back to testify. The biggest thing is in checking with IL news…..no one is pounding on his door. The only reason I say this is because no one is really being stalked at this point by the media. Naturally what ever happens in Orlando is quick news but again, no one is camping out on people’s door steps.
Good synopsis of what happened in court today.
http://www.wftv.com/video/26094638/index.html
I am not sure where the Judge is going with this. How can he order the defense to provide all this information without asking the same of the state. The state already has most of its reports out. I think he should have went back to the drawing board and made all reports fall under these same rules to make it fair. That being said, I am very happy that we will probably get to see a report from this duct tape expert witness. I want to know what he has to say. There may be a few missing reports from the state and I am sure JB will be happy to see them. Note how the cameras pan to show Jb’s reaction, but we don’t get to see Ja’s reaction. I wonder if the state got more than they wished for.
One last thing. I believe it is expensive to ask an expert for an report. Jb elluded to Dr Haskell charging upwards of 60 thousand dollars so far. That being said, can’t the defense come back now and ask the Judge to pay for all these proffessional expert reports? MOO
NTS, Whether you realize or not, Casey is a very privileged person. Not all defendants get the money she is getting. It’s a high profile case and public defenders usually don’t get what the Baez team is getting. The judge did make it even. He required the prosecution and the defense to do the same thing. If you hadn’t noticed, Ashton had already done his due diligence and the defense has it already. You are right about the defense asking for more money to write these summaries. As stated, what difference would it make if these people were testifying about justice and not of money?
D , I took it that JP required only reports from those that did not report as of yet, meaning that the states experts that already reported will not have to fall under the same rule. I see that as unfair. Kc is indigent and the State of Florida will have to pay. That does not make her special, but , if the state requires the reports, they are likley to pay for them.
I agree, it makes no difference as long as it pertains to the case. No one ever said it was cheap. I think JP understands that if the State so chooses to spend so much money to prepare a case, then it must pay. Anything the defense has done, is a reaction to what the state has done. IMO
Thanks, Damagdpets. Yes, each state is different. I read the discovery rules for Florida but must misunderstand what is expected from the defense when they participate in discovery. This kind of seems unfair to me. The state gets an opportunity to prepare a comeback for what the defense experts dispute about the state’s expert’s opinions but the defense doesn’t get the same chance. Can you imagine a debate where one side gets two chances to speak and the other side only one or they get a second chance to speak but no time to think about it or check the relevant literature in order to properly respond?
NotThatSmart, I agree. I don’t believe we have seen reports from everyone but Ashton said all that are going to testify about evidence have submited reports so perhaps there are some they don’t want to testify. In that case, I’d like to know which ones and what their verbal opinion was that caused the state to not want them after all. If the defense drops someone we can assume there is at least a 50/50 chance that they just didn’t have anything to add. But with the state having the burden of proof and Ashton already withholding something in another case (at least one) then I’d want to know what it is.
But, but, but, lol This Mark Charlesworth is list listed as an expert for Shurtape in Hickory NC… He is an expert that either 1: will provide and summary and report, or 2 give an opinion at trial. Otherwise, would they not have to remove him? I mean we are only talking about expert witnesses here. I think now Ashton will have to ask him for a report and have to pay for it. IMO
Also, now if you remember how Dr Vass and Dr Haskell wrote their reports with many many could be’s and maybe’s and if’s and disclaimers, would the defense witnesses not be compelled to do the same type of reports ? thanks
NTS, Agreed…I see a problem on both sides. The maybe’s and if’s and disclaimers do nothing for either side. I believe this will come down to which side is more compelling with their testimony and how both sides present their case.
Maybe I missed something … .but … I didn’t get the sense that the judge was “dumping” on Baez … Ashton did … but, I believe the judge told both sides to “get it together” …. the prosecution is, to my feeling, tryig to ruffled and play games with defense….oh well,it’s late and I should be sleeping …but ….
Mornin all. Damagdpets, perhaps Casey is more privileged than many indigent inmates but that doesn’t necessarily get the label of right and just. One should not have to buy justice, but I guess that is being overly idealistic. I went searching for the average pay scale of court appointed attorneys to see just how much higher the defense team resources have been. We must separate case expenses from salary. Remember the thousands of dollars the state demanded just for the tips. I wasn’t very successful at finding current information but it looks like some public defender and state attorney offices are overpaying their staff, according to the JAC findings. http://www.myflorida.com/audgen/pages/summaries/02-037.htm “FINDING No. 1 – At June 30, 2000, the actual salary rates at several state attorney and public defender offices, as reported by the Justice Administrative Commission (JAC), exceeded the approved salary rates by amounts ranging from $41 to $354,193.
FINDING No. 4 – One public defender office contracted with two attorneys to perform the duties of assistant public defenders (i.e., Other Personnel Services) and allowed these individuals to earn annual and sick leave. We are unaware of any legal authority to allow OPS employees to earn annual and sick leave.”
Keep in mind, public defenders and prosecutors don’t just get their salary, they get other benefits that a private practice attorney doesn’t get, most expensive, health insurance. But, they apparantly don’ think they get paid enough. Look at this tactic to get more taxpayer money the JAC uncovered.
http://www.myflorida.com/audgen/pages/summaries/12867.htm
“Salary Rate as a Predictor of Salaries and Benefits Budgetary Needs
Employee Position Overlaps. Various Offices of the State Attorneys’ and Public Defenders’ management temporarily assigned, during the period including June 30, 1995, employees filling established positions to positions which were already filled by other employees, thereby creating overlaps in employee position assignments. Based on audit tests and our understanding of subsequent actions by some Offices relating to these overlapped positions, the position overlaps and some associated subsequent position reclassifications had an inappropriate effect on some Offices’ actual salary rates at June 30, 1995. In some instances, the employee position overlaps had the effect of increasing the actual salary rates, while in other instances actual salary rates were reduced and rate overages were not shown. (See paragraphs 48 through 55.)
Temporary Special Pay Increases. One Office of the Public Defender granted five employees temporary one-day special pay increases for June 30, 1995. Since the methodology used to compute the actual salary rate of each Office incorporates the annual salaries in effect as of the date of the calculation, the annual salary rate calculated at June 30, 1995, for this Office included the amounts paid in relation to the temporary one-day special pay increases. The temporary one-day special pay increases granted to the five employees, although only ranging in amounts from $15.97 to $16 per employee, increased the Office’s June 30, 1995, actual salary rate by $21,068 and may have precluded an EOG purge (reduction) of approved salary rate at fiscal year-end. (See paragraphs 56 through 61.)
Vacancy Rates. Because of some Offices’ extensive movement of staff among assigned positions, the EOG was not always able to readily identify and eliminate positions which had been vacant for 181 days or more. Through the retention of these vacant positions, these Offices continued to receive salary rate and salaries and benefits appropriations associated with the positions. (See paragraphs 62 through 69.)”
The 9th district summary report found here: http://www.myflorida.com/audgen/pages/subjects/stattorney.htm gives the public defender a passing grade but said the SA office is sloppy with their vehicle records, necessary to propve they aren’t using the vehicle for personal reasons. For the fiscal year 2009+2010 the 9th circuit court public defender’s office had 13,041,878 for 206 positions. That works out to $63,310 average. See http://www.oppaga.state.fl.us/profiles/1024/print.asp This job listing for 2004-2005 shows entry level positions around $37,000 in Palm Beach http://www.salarylist.com/states-assistant-public-defender-jobs-salary-in-florida.htm This 2006 article http://www.nlada.org/DMS/Documents/1160753975.67/sfl-ppros12oct13,0,1022455.story%3Fcoll%3Dsfla-news-palm says this of a Palm Beach prosecutor. “He pays his prosecutors a starting salary of $40,000, about $2,000 more then the statutory minimum. And he has plans to raise his prosecutors to a $50,000 salary after completing a year of service, though he said he has cautioned “there’s no guarantees.” At $68,772, his prosecutors average the highest annual salary in the state, according to statistics.
Oh, here we go, a current job listing. Here is the Hillsbororough current offering from the public defender’s office: http://www.pd13.state.fl.us/PDF/Benefits_sheet.pdf
Assistant Public Defenders are classified as “Senior Management” within the
State of Florida Pay and Classification Plan. Therefore, our attorneys enjoy
additional benefits such as employer paid health insurance, basic life
insurance, and short term disability insurance. In addition, retirement benefit
contributions are calculated at a higher percentage.
For example:
Annual entry level salary: $40,000
Annual health insurance: $11,622
Annual retirement contribution: $ 5,248
Annual life insurance contribution: $ 151
Annual disability insurance contribution: $ 28
Personal leave (104 hours) $ 2,000
Sick leave (104 hours) $ 2,000
Holiday pay (104 hours) $ 2,000
Total compensation: $63,049
See the link for a large list of additional benefits, including adoption benefits. I think if you multiply this by 2, what Baez has taken for himself isn’t so outrageous. But do we really know what he took for himself and what went to paying people that are part of the work product that hasn’t been disclosed?
So many bloggers have gone on and on about the fact that Baez took so long to pass his bar exam but people working within the system haven’t when they begin practice either. In fact, they were allowed two attempts to pass before they loose their job, according to this argument that that law shouldn’t be changed to only one attempt to pass, argued back in 2005.
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc03-122/03-122fpda.pdf
For Public Defender CLI’s, Rule 11-
1.2 requires supervision of all in-court appearances by an
attorney, written consent of the client, and personal
professional responsibility of the supervising attorney.
See Rule 11-17(c). Before a law student can be certified,
he or she must go through a law school practice program of
at least three credits or 200 hours, be familiar with the
Rules of Professional Conduct, and be certified by the law
school Dean as being of good character, competent legal
ability, and adequately trained. Rule 11-1.3.
As currently written, rule 11 allows a law school
graduate two attempts, at most, to pass all portions of the
bar examination. The current rule is fair and reasonable
because it allows only a limited time in which a law school
graduate is able to practice law under the limitations of
rule 11 without passing all portions of the bar.
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to get clear on how outrageous the defense is or is not, with handling resources. I highly doubt the JAC nit picks and objects over every request for money from the public defender’s office. So, Casey isn’t being treated the way other indigent inmates would be. The only privledge she has is more people willing to give their time away to her.
TY Zuben,
Wow, how could anyone go to school for min. 8 yrs, pass the BAR just to work for 60K a year? I would imagine if someone started out working for a county at some point they would want to branch out and go into practice on their own, don’t you think? Where would they get the money to do that?
Maybe if there were some type of incentive program where the Public Defender’s would get a bonus for every case they won then there wouldn’t be so many people in prison because I believe there are poor, uneducated people incarcerated on non-violent charges stacking up in prisons everyday because of poor counsel. The overcrowding of our prisons should be a wake up call to all of us, IMO. But…I know, I’m only dreaming AGAIN.
Thanks again for your insightful comment.
Since Joe Jordon’s emails to LE are relevant to this thread I thought I’d add a link to his part in discovery. http://www.docstoc.com/docs/30918603/Casey-Anthony-full-document-pages-12662-13305-23Mar2010